[Equest-users] Indoor arena suggestions/tips

Nathan Kegel nathan.kegel at iesve.com
Thu Feb 28 16:12:45 PST 2013

I don't think this prevents you from taking credit for natural ventilation.  It doesn't say you must provide fans, pumps, diffusers, etc.  You CAN heat and cool with an open window after all - although cooling is the far more common application of natural ventilation.  :)

What you would need is a way to model space temperature and control the windows (plus any other devices to mechanically condition the space when conditions weren't favourable for natural ventilation) to maintain the comfort range.  There are tools that allow you to control windows and HVAC systems in this manner - based on space temperature, CO2 level, humidity, etc.  So assuming your space type and climate are good fits for this strategy - you can apply the appropriate software and control "sequences" to model a system in accordance with Appendix G - and account for wind speed, wind direction, temperatures, moisture, etc. in a fully dynamic fashion.

While I've never attempted to use eQuest for this, I have taken this approach successfully with tools that are intended to model these types of systems.

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From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Stormy L. Shanks
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:00 PM
To: Matt Hein; RobertWichert; Email question to eQuest
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Indoor arena suggestions/tips


There is an addendum to 90.1 that adds heating-only systems 10 and 11. It's addendum dn. You might check it out, but I'm not sure that your space really fits into that addendum, and I don't think it helps you. When using that addendum, you model no cooling at all in either case. In reality, in the proposed building, you are getting some free cooling from natural ventilation.

I have an idea that's complicated but maybe other people have a simplified method that will accomplish something similar. If you were going to accurately demonstrate what you're saving over the baseline, you need to figure out how much energy your baseline system would use to do what the free cooling with natural ventilation is doing in the proposed model. Maybe you could figure out the space temperature you can achieve for each hour that you're using natural ventilation for free cooling. Then, you could set up a space setpoint schedule in your baseline that would match those temperatures. The mechanical cooling system in your baseline model would cool to those same temperatures. Does that sound crazy?

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From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org]<mailto:[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org]> On Behalf Of Matt Hein
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 10:24 AM
To: RobertWichert; Email question to eQuest
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Indoor arena suggestions/tips

Has anyone been able to capture savings from a natural ventilation design for LEED 2009 NC?  (I interpret that G3.1.1.b prevents this.)

Glancing over Appendix G I see something that doesn't seem very encouraging of 'green' design: (not to say that it discourages)

  *   G3.1.1.b says, "All conditioned spaces in the proposed design shall be simulated as being both heated and cooled even if no heating or cooling system is to be installed ..."

It seems like there should be some way to encourage natural ventilation design by accounting for the energy savings.
I suspect I'll approach this by setting a high Tstat value (100 F) and using the exact same cooling configuration for proposed and baseline so the savings are null. Well, maybe I can get some fan power savings.


On 2/28/2013 8:33 AM, RobertWichert wrote:
I would certainly bring it up.  I would expect it to be more comfortable and with much lower fuel costs.  Even first cost could be lower, if you really plan to heat all that air, unless the insulation is very heavy, even on the roof.  I would think you could get away with minimal insulation on the roof if you used radiant.

Just my first thought though, I'm sure there is much more to consider.

Maybe you could keep us apprised of your progress...

Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C

+1 916 966 9060

FAX +1 916 966 9068

On 2/27/2013 2:47 PM, Matt Hein wrote:
The preliminary design calls for forced-air with low winter setpoint of 60F and additional fans to de-stratify. Summer is Nat. ventilation with no cooling.
I plan on discussing radiant heat in our next conversation.

Thanks Robert,


On 2/27/2013 4:02 PM, RobertWichert wrote:
Is radiant heating being discussed, Matt?

Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C

+1 916 966 9060

FAX +1 916 966 9068

On 2/27/2013 1:27 PM, Matt Hein wrote:
Thanks David and Nick. Your advice is much appreciated.


On 2/27/2013 1:58 PM, Nick Caton wrote:
No direct answers, but I would plan on a long discussion with the HVAC designers to arrive at a mutual understanding of the "conditioned volume" and loads incident on that volume to be addressed by the systems.  Approaching this as thermally-connected conditioned/unconditioned zones matching those design parameters makes sense procedurally from an eQuest standpoint.

Time permitting, running an early "test" model to ensure the results agree/ballpark with the designer's calculations would be a good idea as well to nail down the nuts & bolts of your modeling procedure before crunch time (Keeping good notes & written communication will also be helpful later for model documentation).

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From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Matt Hein
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 10:32 AM
To: Email question to eQuest
Subject: [Equest-users] Indoor arena suggestions/tips

Hello all,

I'm working on an 150,000 sf indoor practice facility with 90 ft ceilings. Does anyone have any suggestions/tips/heads-up comments that would be useful in starting this model?
Specifically, I'm wondering if I'll run into issues related to stratification and need to create 'sub-zones' so eQuest better represents the proposed distribution system.

Thank you for your time and combined insight,

Matthew Hein, P.E.
BTU Engineering, Inc.
2021 25th Ave.
Brookings, SD  57006

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On 2/27/2013 10:50 AM, David Eldridge wrote:
eQUEST will assume a uniform temperature throughout the zone, so if the proposed HVAC system will allow stratification then you would need to do something like you are describing.


David S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, HBDP
Grumman/Butkus Associates


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