[Equest-users] Indoor fan separation at ARI

[Omar ElRawy]

Thanks Maria,
                      Which 90.1 version are you referring to, as I can't
find this part in my 2007 version.
Concerning the 248 CFM, it is an auto-sized value by eQuest for a 342 ft2
lift lobby space.


Thanks for consideration,

*Omar ElRawy, LEED AP BD+C*
LEED Project Manager
EA Sustainable Building Consultants
http://www.ea-buildingconsultants.com


On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 5:26 PM, Maria Karpman <
maria.karpman at karpmanconsulting.net> wrote:

> Omar,
>
>
>
> “2” after SEER and HSPF means squared – I did not notice that formatting
> got messed up when I copied from 90.1. Here it is again:
>
>
>
>
>
> On a separate note, 248 CFM design flow rate for the baseline HVAC system
> seems unrealistically low. I would double check that you are applying
> G3.1.1 correctly (For systems 1, 2, 3, and 4, each thermal block shall be
> modeled with its own HVAC system. For systems 5, 6, 7, and 8, each floor
> shall be modeled with a separate HVAC system.)
>
>
>
> Good luck,
>
>
>
> Maria
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Maria Karpman *LEED AP, BEMP, CEM
>
> ________________
>
> Karpman Consulting
>
> www.karpmanconsulting.net
>
> Phone 860.430.1909
>
> 41C New London Turnpike
>
> Glastonbury, CT 06033
>
>
>
> *From:* Jones, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 10:28 AM
> *To:* Elizabeth Gillmor; Omar ElRawy
> *Cc:* Maria Karpman; equest
> *Subject:* RE: [Equest-users] Indoor fan separation at ARI
>
>
>
> Hi Elizabeth,
>
> I am looking at the EMITUsersGuide.  The input dialog shown on page 12
> asks for the Main Supply Fan Power and the Return Fan Power.  I assume it
> is asking for the fan power at design conditions – bhp/motor efficiency
> from the fan curve?
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
>
> *Christopher Jones,* P.Eng.
> Senior Engineer
>
>
>
> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226
>
> F +1 416-487-9766
>
> C +1 416-697-0065
>
>
>
> www.wspgroup.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Elizabeth Gillmor [mailto:elizabeth at energetics-eng.com
> <elizabeth at energetics-eng.com>]
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 10:15 AM
> *To:* Omar ElRawy
> *Cc:* Maria Karpman; Jones, Christopher; equest
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Indoor fan separation at ARI
>
>
>
> Sorry for any confusion, I was just copying/pasting my LEED response for a
> system Type 5. Yes, you would follow G3.1.2.9 with the appropriate numbers
> for system types 3-4.
>
>
>
> LEED refers you to the EMIT user guide for these formulas, you can
> reference that:
>
> http://www.rmi.org/Content/Files/EMITUsersGuide.pdf
>
>
>
>
> *Elizabeth Gillmor  **PE, LC, LEED AP*
>
>
>
> *e n e r g e t i c s  **consulting engineers, llc*
>
> energetics-eng.com
>
> c 303.619.0091
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 6:23 AM, Omar ElRawy <omaroelrawy at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
>              Thanks William Bishop, Elizabeth Gillmor, Yongqingzhao,
> and Maria Karpman, this is a lot of helpful data.
>
>
>
>
>
> I think *Maria* did brief the whole subject, but I just need to ask few
> questions that will help in well documenting this point to the LEED
> reviewer:
>
>
>
> *1. Where can I find these official formulas so that I can refer to and
> attach to my reply please? *
>
> *2. What is the difference between SEER and SEER2, and HSPF and HSPF2?*
>
>
>
>
>
> *Concerning fan power*, I'am referring to ASHRAE 90.1 2007 section 3.1.2.9*
> to find the following:*
>
>
>
> bhp = CFMs x 0.00094 + A       ----- (where I'am considering
> my auto-sized eQuest CFM for this value)
>
>
>
> Pfan (Watts) = bhp × 746 / Fan Motor Efficiency    (For systems 3 through
> 8)
>
>
>
> So I'am stopping at both equations to find myself confused with
> *Elizabeth*'s equations (KW/cfm = bhp/0.746*Fan Motor Efficiency, and
>  bhp=CFM x 0.0013+A)
>
>
>
> For example, my system is 248 CFM, as per section 3.1.2.9, my calculations
> will be as follows:
>
>
>
>    - bhp=248x0.00094+0 = 0.23312
>    - Pfan = (0.23312x746)/0.825 = 210.79 W
>    - W/CFM = 210.79/248 = 0.8499 W/CFM
>
>
>
> *I wonder if Elizabeth is using a different 90.1 version, or I'am just
> confused at the 3.1.2.9 interpretation?*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for consideration,
>
>
> *Omar ElRawy, LEED AP BD+C*
>
> LEED Project Manager
>
> EA Sustainable Building Consultants
>
> http://www.ea-buildingconsultants.com
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 4:10 PM, Maria Karpman <
> maria.karpman at karpmanconsulting.net> wrote:
>
> Note that 90.1 2013 finally supplied the “official” formulas for
> extracting fan power from EER, SEER, COP47, and HSPF ratings. The resulting
> EIR is slighting different compared to the eQUEST formulas discussed below
> that many of us have been using – for example, the ASHRAE equations account
> for system capacity, resulting in varying EIR depending on system size.
>
>
>
> For Baseline HVAC Systems 1,
>
> 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, calculate the minimum COP*nfcooling *and
>
> COP*nfheating *using the equation for the applicable performance
>
> rating as indicated in Tables 6.8.1-1 through 6.8.1-4.
>
> Where a full- and part-load efficiency rating is provided in
>
> Tables 6.8.1-1 through 6.8.1-4, the full-load equation below
>
> shall be used:
>
>
>
> COP*nfcooling *= 7.84E-8 × EER × *Q *+ 0.338 × EER
>
> COP*nfcooling *= –0.0076 × SEER2 + 0.3796 × SEER
>
> COP*nfheating *= 1.48E-7 × COP*47 *× *Q *+ 1.062 × COP*47*
>
> (applies to heat-pump heating efficiency only)
>
> COP*nfheating *= –0.0296 × HSPF2 + 0.7134 × HSPF
>
>
>
> where COP*nfcooling *and COP*nfheating *are the packaged HVAC
>
> equipment cooling and heating energy efficiency, respectively,
>
> to be used in the baseline building, which excludes
>
> supply fan power, and *Q *is the AHRI-rated cooling capacity
>
> in Btu/h.
>
> EER, SEER, COP, and HSPF shall be at AHRI test conditions.
>
> Fan energy shall be modeled separately according to
>
> Section G3.1.2.10.
>
> --
>
> *Maria Karpman *LEED AP, BEMP, CEM
>
> ________________
>
> Karpman Consulting
>
> www.karpmanconsulting.net
>
> Phone 860.430.1909
>
> 41C New London Turnpike
>
> Glastonbury, CT 06033
>
>
>
> *From:* Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Elizabeth Gillmor
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 09, 2015 11:32 AM
> *To:* Jones, Christopher
>
>
> *Cc:* equest
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Indoor fan separation at ARI
>
>
>
> Chris you are right, the unit labels should have been W/cfm not kW.
> Thanks for the catch!
>
> [image: Inline image 2]
>
>
> *Elizabeth Gillmor  **PE, LC, LEED AP*
>
>
>
> *e n e r g e t i c s  **consulting engineers, llc*
>
> energetics-eng.com
>
> c 303.619.0091
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 8:49 AM, Jones, Christopher <
> Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com> wrote:
>
> Just checking but 0.365 kW/cfm seems pretty high.  That is 356 W/cfm.  The
> DOE2.2 default is 0.0006 kW/cfm, 0.6 W/cfm for the PSZ system
>
>
>
> [image: cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
>
> *Christopher Jones,* P.Eng.
> Senior Engineer
>
>
>
> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226
>
> F +1 416-487-9766
>
> C +1 416-697-0065
>
>
>
> www.wspgroup.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Elizabeth Gillmor
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 09, 2015 10:09 AM
> *To:* Omar ElRawy
> *Cc:* equest
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Indoor fan separation at ARI
>
>
>
> I seem to get this comment frequently so I have it all typed out as a
> stock LEED comment response.  The advice you received is correct. You can
> use the following formulas for fan power and EIR:
>
>
>
> kW/cfm = BHP / 0.746 * Fan Motor Efficiency     (<----from Appendix G)
>
>
>
> BHP = CFM * 0.0013 + Pressure Drop Adjustment
>
>
>
> The baseline EIR is then calculated with fan energy modeled separately,
> using the following formula (same as what eQuest uses in Wizard mode):
>
>
>
> [image: Inline image 1]
>
>
>
> Where ARI Fan Power = fan power at rated ARI conditions (W/Btuh), and CAP
> = total cooling capacity (Btuh).  At rated ARI conditions, the supply fan
> is rated at 0.365 kW/cfm and 400 cfm/ton, such that:
>
>
>
> [image: Inline image 2]
>
>
>
> When normalizing the cooling capacity, the formula is:
>
> [image: Inline image 3]
>
>
>
> When applied to a baseline EER=9.5, the resulting EIR=0.3051.  The eQuest
> wizard will also do this for you correctly, but usually at LEED submittal
> time we are all well past the wizard phase, so the formulas above are handy
> to have.
>
>
>
> Good luck!
>
> Elizabeth
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Elizabeth Gillmor  **PE, LC, LEED AP*
>
>
>
> *e n e r g e t i c s  **consulting engineers, llc*
>
> energetics-eng.com
>
> c 303.619.0091
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 3:26 AM, Omar ElRawy <omaroelrawy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> *Dear all,*
>
> *               I've got the following reply for a psz system in the
> baseline case during preliminary LEED design submittal:*
>
>
>
> *"**N*ote that section G3.1.2.1 requires that where efficiency ratings,
> such as EER and COP, include fan energy, the descriptor shall be broken
> down into its components so that supply fan energy can be modeled
> separately. Because the efficiency ratings are calculated at ARI-rated
> conditions, the fans should also be broken out at ARI-rated conditions.
> Most simulation software programs have the capability to perform this step
> automatically. Provide documentation showing that this calculation has been
> performed by the software automatically or provide calculations consistent
> with the ASHRAE 90.1-2007 User’s Manual showing that the calculation has
> been performed at ARI-rated conditions."
>
>
>
> What I did is that I referred to eQuest library, and documented the
> following paragraph to the reviewer:
>
> "COOLING-EIR:
> The Electric Input Ratio (EIR), or 1/(Coefficient of Performance), for the
> cooling unit at ARI rated conditions..... This EIR is at ARI rated
> conditions, i.e., without correction for different temperature or part
> load. Note: If you include fan electric energy consumption in your value of
> COOLING-EIR, then you should set SUPPLY-KW/FLOW to zero. Otherwise, the
> supply fan electrical energy will be double counted........ Imbedding the
> fan energy into the COOLING-EIR is valid only if the fan is constant volume
> and INDOOR-FAN-MODE = INTERMITTENT; i.e. the fan cycles on/off with the
> compressor. If the fan runs continuously during occupied hours, or the fan
> is variable volume, then the fan energy cannot be included in the
> COOLING-EIR (or HEATING-EIR)."
>
> And I did set fan kw/cfm to zero, intermittent, and constant volume, but
> I've got the SV-A report reporting zero kw power demand, and zero fan (kw)
> for the system and its zones.
>
> *Then I got an advice stating that:*
>
> "You should do what the reviewer mentions, divide the indoor fan from the
> efficiency rating at ARI-rated conditions and model it separately; this way
> you will be able to report the appropriate fan power"
>
> My question is:* where do I separately input the indoor fan power (kw),
> and what value should it be?, knowing that this is a baseline case that do
> not refer to an actual design.*
>
> Thanks,
>
> *Omar ElRawy, LEED AP BD+C*
>
> LEED Project Manager
>
> EA Sustainable Building Consultants
>
> http://www.ea-buildingconsultants.com
>
>
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