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[EnergyPlus_Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas usage results
Dear Dimos,
I think you want to set it up like...
STEAM EQUIPMENT,
SPACE4-1 ElecEq 1, !- Name
SPACE4-1, !- Zone Name
EQUIP-1, !- SCHEDULE Name
equipment level, !- Design Level calculation method
1050, !- Design Level {W}
, !- Watts per Zone Area {watts/m2}
, !- Watts per Person {watts/person}
0.5, !- Fraction Latent
0.3, !- Fraction Radiant
0, !- Fraction Lost
Laundry; !- End-Use Subcategory
The above example is from the IO Reference. It uses "equipment level"
as the calculation method and a fixed value (in this case 1050W) as
the maximum energy level.
The schedule you use for "SCHEDULE name" will modify the "Design
Level"; it's a multiplier for the "Design Level". You could, for
example, use a schedule with the fraction of maximum energy and vary
the steam use according to your desires.
--- In EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, D T <ellinas.1984@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the suggestions. However, when I look at the Steam
Equipment object, I don't see a field that allows you to adjust the
steam flow. Would I have to use this object or another object to
adjust the steam flow? I'm confused.
>
> Dimos
>
> --- On Fri, 8/8/08, JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@...> wrote:
>
> From: JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@...>
> Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas usage results
> To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 12:29 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Dimos,
>
> Now that I think about it a bit, I wonder......
>
> It occurs to me that all of the normal HVAC objects expect a
> thermostat which controls to the zone temperature setpoint. Your
> situation does not fit that scenario. It would be challenging to try
> to define a scenario that treated the oven as a temperature zone; you
> would have to define a separate zone for the oven, with walls and roof
> that matched the actual construction ... and then define a complete
> heating system for that zone. Even then, there are probably warmup /
> cooldown cycles for the oven that would not be handled well by an E+
> thermostat.
>
> So....
>
> As I recall, your Gas Equipment object uses the same amount of gas
> constantly. If you got good agreement with your utility bills
> previously, you should be able to duplicate that with an equivalent
> amount of energy in the Steam Equipment object. I think (you should
> check) that the Steam Equipment object assumes that the steam is at
> standard atmospheric pressure, so your steam flow will be higher than
> the process equipment if the process equipment operates at a higher
> pressure. (In other words, adjust the steam flow to the equivalent
> rate at sea level atmospheric pressure.)
>
> Finally, the Schedule field of the Steam Equipment object should give
> you plenty of flexibility to fine tune the energy use.
>
> --- In EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com, D T <ellinas.1984@ ...>
wrote:
> >
> > The facility I am modeling uses a natural gas-fired fire-tube steam
> boiler to heat the water and convert it into steam for this facility's
> process. Since natural gas is the fuel that is being used, I am trying
> to validate the facility's monthly gas energy usage. When I lumped the
> ovens and the boiler in the gas equipment object, I was able to
> successfully obtain the monthly gas usages and gas cost (from the
> tariff I applied) with EnergyPlus. The usages and costs compared well
> with the actual bill data.
> >
> > But, since there's a boiler object in EnergyPlus, I think it would
> be better to use that. I've never used the steam boiler object
> before and this is why I'm having so many problems. It looks like I
> have to add a steam loop if I want to correctly model the facility.
> What do you think?
> >
> > Dimos
> >
> > p.s. I find the ABUPS report useful because it gives you a total
> report on the facility energy usage. It's helpful for the project I am
> working on.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 8/7/08, JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@> wrote:
> >
> > From: JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@>
> > Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas usage
results
> > To: EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com
> > Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 6:55 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Dimos,
> >
> > It makes sense to me that the Steam Equipment object reports energy in
> > a purchased heating category because it's not associated with a
> > "known" HVAC energy source like a boiler. It could actually be a
> > number of independent steam sources that are unrelated to HVAC.
> >
> > That said, I still don't know anything about the ABUPS report, since I
> > haven't used it before. Maybe I should check it out on my next
> > project, since you are finding it useful....
> >
> > p.s., How much trouble could it be to just add the purchased heating
> > energy to the other gas usage? It seems as though that wouldn't be
> > too difficult...
> >
> > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com, D T <ellinas.1984@ ...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > sorry... i misspoke, it's supposed to read "steam equipment object"
> > in the second paragraph not "steam boiler object". Same thing goes
> > with the last paragraph. I meant steam equipment object
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 8/7/08, D T <ellinas.1984@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: D T <ellinas.1984@ ...>
> > > Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas
usage
> > results
> > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 6:32 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you very much for the help. I read through all the comments
> > and objects that you had marked through. I made all the changes you
> > had suggested to the file, but I was still getting an error with one
> > of the branch nodes after re-running the simulation. I think I will
> > follow your suggestion to use the steam object for the boiler. Though,
> > as you said, it won't capture the sophistication of a boiler, it does
> > look a lot easier to work with and provides a good approximation.
> > >
> > > When I used the steam boiler object, I got energy usage results.
> > However, this energy was under purchased heating, which is not
> > correct. How do I get it to not fall under this category in the ABUPS
> > report?
> > >
> > > As far as how I specified each zone, you are correct. The only
> > exception is zone 1441 which is actually a freezer, but DesignBuilder
> > did not have that option so I tried modeling it as best I could for
> > the time being, knowing that I would change it later. I will probably
> > use the refrigeration object for that zone because ammonia compressors
> > service that zone.
> > >
> > > I appreciate all the help you have provided. If I could get the
> > results from steam object to not fall under purchased heating, that
> > would be great.
> > >
> > > Thanks again,
> > > Dimos
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 8/7/08, JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@>
> > > Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas usage
> > results
> > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 3:08 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Dimos,
> > >
> > > I took the liberty of making some suggestions for your .idf and have
> > > uploaded them in a Microsoft Word document for your review. All
> > > changes are highlighted with a yellow background. Anything that I
> > > thought should be deleted uses a "Strikethrough" font; if you agree
> > > that it should be deleted, you will have to actually delete the
text.
> > >
> > > My own comments are in a red font. All suggestions and comments are
> > > based on the understanding that the assumptions in my previous post
> > > are correct...
> > >
> > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com, D T <ellinas.1984@ ...>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the suggestions from you and Richard. I modeled this
> > > facility using DesignBuilder and imported the idf file into
> > > EnergyPlus. In the model, I have DX cooling along with split
> > > system/gas furnace for heating in the office area. The largest zone
> > > (zone 1405) has no heating. It only uses mechanical ventilation and
> > > outside air. The hot water boiler was added in there from
> > > DesignBuilder for the gas furnace in the office area. If I'm
correct,
> > > I don't think that zone I designated as the offices is being
heated.
> > > >
> > > > I deleted the Furnace:heating object because I don't need to
> > > heat zone 1405 with the either the steam boiler nor the hot water
> > > boiler. Rather, the steam from the steam boiler is being used for a
> > > process in the zone.
> > > >
> > > > I tried connecting the appropriate branches and/or coils to the
> > > steam boiler, but I'm still having problems. Though the errors
aren't
> > > fatal, I am still not getting gas usage values from the steam
boiler.
> > > I'm having problems with node connections for the steam boilers.
> > > Something is not correct and, despite the error messages, I still
> > > cannot figure out how to correct it.
> > > >
> > > > Any help or suggestions as to how I can fix this problem are
> > > appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Dimos
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Wed, 8/6/08, JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@>
> > > > Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas usage
> > results
> > > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 9:05 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Dimos,
> > > >
> > > > In addition to Richard's comments, I suggest....
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure why you are trying to use both hot water AND steam
> > > > boilers on the same building, but consider these suggestions. ..
> > > >
> > > > 1) Use a fan coil with hot water heating for Zone 1405 and
> delete the
> > > > furnace. You can get both heating and cooling from that single
> object
> > > > and ignore the Steam Boiler completely.
> > > > 2) If you need to provide outdoor air to zone 1405, and it
must use
> > > > heat from the boiler, you'll have to abandon the Furnace and
instead
> > > > create an air handler with OA mixer, cooling coil and heating
coil.
> > > > The Branch will look something like...
> > > >
> > > > BRANCH,
> > > > Branch_AirLoop_ AH1, !- Branch Name
> > > > Autosize, !- Maximum Branch Flow Rate {m3/s}
> > > > OUTSIDE AIR SYSTEM, !- Comp1 Type
> > > > OASystem_AH1, !- Comp1 Name
> > > > NodeOut_RFan_ AH1, !- Comp1 Inlet Node Name
> > > > NodeOut_MA_AH1, !- Comp1 Outlet Node Name
> > > > PASSIVE, !- Comp1 Branch Control Type
> > > > DXSystem:AirLoop, !- Comp2 Type
> > > > DXAirLoop_AH1, !- Comp2 Name
> > > > NodeOut_MA_AH1, !- Comp2 Inlet Node Name
> > > > NodeOut_ClgCoilAir_ AH1, !- Comp2 Outlet Node Name
> > > > PASSIVE, !- Comp2 Branch Control Type
> > > > FAN:SIMPLE:VARIABLE VOLUME, !- Comp3 Type
> > > > SFan_AH1, !- Comp3 Name
> > > > NodeOut_ClgCoilAir_ AH1, !- Comp3 Inlet Node Name
> > > > NodeOut_SF_AH1, !- Comp3 Outlet Node Name
> > > > ACTIVE, !- Comp3 Branch Control Type
> > > > COIL:WATER:SIMPLEHE ATING,!- Comp4 Type
> > > > HtgCoil_AH1, !- Comp4 Name
> > > > NodeOut_SF_AH1, !- Comp4 Inlet Node Name
> > > > NodeOut_Air_ AH1, !- Comp4 Outlet Node Name
> > > > PASSIVE; !- Comp4 Branch Control Type
> > > > Of course, you will need Splitter, Mixer, Direct Air and a
> variety of
> > > > other objects to make the Air Loop complete; Don't forget
those! It
> > > > will become very similar to your other two zones.
> > > >
> > > > 3) Your Steam Boiler has only one branch, named "1405 branch".
> At the
> > > > least, if you keep the Steam Boiler, you will need an inlet and
> outlet
> > > > branch, similar to what you've created for the Hot water Boiler.
> > > >
> > > > 4) The Steam Boiler now has inlet and outlet nodes that look
> > > > incorrect. They appear to be from an air loop....
> > > >
> > > > That's all for now.1
> > > >
> > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com, D T
<ellinas.1984@ ...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the suggestions. I created a Coil:Steam:AirHeati ng
> > object
> > > > and connected it to the Furnace:HeatOnly object. However, I am
> having
> > > > problems connecting the Furnace to the boiler. I read the error
> > > > messages I am getting and I still cannot figure out how to fix the
> > > > problem. Apparently I am having a problem with the branches and
> nodes.
> > > > I created an AirLoop for the steam boiler. More or less, I am
having
> > > > trouble figuring out how to correct my errors. Any help or
> suggestions
> > > > are appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Dimos
> > > > >
> > > > > P.S. I've uploaded my file.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Mon, 8/4/08, JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > From: JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@>
> > > > > Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas
usage
> > > results
> > > > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 9:07 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Dimos,
> > > > >
> > > > > I took a look at the new file, and it appears that:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) You have two air loops. Each of those has a
> Furnace:HeatCool. One
> > > > > of the furnaces has a gas heating coil and the other has an
> electric
> > > > coil.
> > > > > 2) You have a "Boiler:simple" (which is a hot water boiler)
and a
> > > > > "Boiler:Steam" , but the only thing using either one is the Fan
> > > Coil in
> > > > > Zone 1405.
> > > > > 3) Therefore, neither of the Furnaces will use any energy
from the
> > > > > Boilers because they're not using hot water or steam coils. In
> > > > > addition, the Boiler:Steam will not use any gas, because it has
> > > > > nothing connected to it.
> > > > > 4) If the Fan Coil has any load, the Boiler:Simple will provide
> > it ...
> > > > > as long as the Boiler is available and the Fan coil operates.
> > > > > 5) Finally, you have created a Gas Equipment object called
> "Boiler",
> > > > > but it is not connected in any way with the heating loads, and
> > > > > therefore is not useful to you.
> > > > > 6) I think you should:
> > > > > a) Delete the "Boiler" Gas Equipment object. This is not the
> correct
> > > > > approach for a heating load.
> > > > > b) Connect the heating devices (Fan Coil or Furnace,
whichever is
> > > > > proper) to the Boiler:Simple or Boiler:Steam. If you use
> > > > > Boiler:Steam, you'll need a Coil:Steam:AirHeati ng object in the
> > > > > Furnace or Fan Coil.
> > > > > c) Check the Fan Coil operation and confirm that it operates and
> > also
> > > > > has some heating to perform. Also check to see that the
> > Boiler:Simple
> > > > > is operating when you need it.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's all I can figure out right now. Good luck!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com, D T
> <ellinas.1984@ ...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for the help. I modeled the ovens using the GAS
EQUIPMENT
> > > > > object as well as the boiler. I did this in order to get
> monthly gas
> > > > > usage values for one entire year for the entire faclity. They
> > closely
> > > > > matched the faclity's gas bills. For the boiler, I used the GAS
> > > > > EQUIPMENT object because I had some problems using the STEAM
> BOILER
> > > > > object in EnergyPlus.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I specified all the inputs in the STEAM BOILER object yet I
> don't
> > > > > get any monthly output results. I do not know why I am not
> > getting any
> > > > > values for the steam boiler. Do you know why this could be
> > happening?
> > > > > Also, I have yet to specify the fans for the ovens. But, I would
> > like
> > > > > to ask, under which object in the Fans category of EnergyPlus
> > would I
> > > > > use to model the fans?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks again for the help. I will upload my idf file.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dimos
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Fri, 8/1/08, JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@>
> > > > > > Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas
> usage
> > > > results
> > > > > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 1:26 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Dimos,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's my opinion:
> > > > > > 1) Boiler:Steam sounds like a good choice. In my
experience, the
> > > part
> > > > > > load ratio coefficients make a big difference, so I encourage
> > you to
> > > > > > take some time to get realistic values of these coefficients
> > for the
> > > > > > boiler.
> > > > > > 2) The Gas Equipment object looks suitable for an oven.
Assuming
> > > that
> > > > > > this is an oven type that is used for drying products or
curing
> > > paint,
> > > > > > the radiant fraction will be 0, the latent fraction will be 0,
> > > and the
> > > > > > fraction lost will be about .20 - .25. A bakery oven will use
> > > similar
> > > > > > fractions. You will have to determine the schedule of
> > operation and
> > > > > > load.
> > > > > > 3) Finally, ovens often have a fan for the burner, another for
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > and sometimes a fan for circulation; the energy for these fans
> > > should
> > > > > > be included in your model.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com, D T
> > <ellinas.1984@ ...>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for the suggestion. Since I have never modeled
> > boilers nor
> > > > > > ovens in EnergyPlus, could you perhaps steer me toward the
> > objects I
> > > > > > would need to work with. I know that for boilers there are
> several
> > > > > > objects. The plant I am modeling uses boilers for steam
> > > generation, so
> > > > > > would I need to use the steam boiler option? Also, for the
> > > ovens, what
> > > > > > object do you suggest I work with?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Assuming I get these to work properly after modeling
them, how
> > > would
> > > > > > I get them to report in the ABUPS report?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks in advance for helping me with this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dimos
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/31/08, JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@>
> > > > > > > Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: need help w/ monthly gas
> > usage
> > > > > results
> > > > > > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > Date: Thursday, July 31, 2008, 8:08 PM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear Dimos,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Boiler and ovens will operate on different schedules
with
> > > > > > > different loads and will have different part load
> efficiencies.
> > > > > > > Therefore, I think you should model them separately, not
as a
> > > > combined
> > > > > > > object.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have not modeled ovens before in E+, but I have applied
> > them in
> > > > > > > buildings. A typical oven will lose heat to the zone it
> occupies
> > > > > > > through the oven walls, so you'll need to know the
insulation
> > > > value of
> > > > > > > those walls and calculate that rate. The rate will vary
as the
> > > oven
> > > > > > > warms up and cools down, so you will need to know the
> operating
> > > > > > schedule.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > An oven also loses heat through the stack. That is the
amount
> > > which
> > > > > > > should be assigned to the "Fraction Lost" field.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com, D T
> > > <ellinas.1984@ ...>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for the help. I now understand why I'm not getting
> > > values.
> > > > > > > However, my ultimate goal is to obtain monthly gas usage
> > > values for
> > > > > > > one boiler and 4 ovens for the facility I am modeling.
> Since I'm
> > > > > > > trying to model a boiler and 4 ovens, could I just simply
> > > > specify the
> > > > > > > total power input from the boiler and ovens (in watts) under
> > > the GAS
> > > > > > > EQUIPMENT object? When I did that, I got an error in my
> > > > simulation. Or
> > > > > > > do I need to use the boiler object and something else
for the
> > > ovens?
> > > > > > > I'm still struggling with trying to get gas usage values for
> > > > this part
> > > > > > > of my work. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > > > > Dimos
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: JV Dirkes II <jvd2pe@>
> > > > > > > > Subject: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: need help w/
monthly gas
> > > usage
> > > > > > results
> > > > > > > > To: EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 12:48 PM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dear Dimos,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I took a look at your file and I think your problem is
this:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1) You have an ELECTRIC heating coil in the furnace.
> > > > > > > > 2) Since the Furnace is the only heating object, and its
> > > coil uses
> > > > > > > > electricity, there is no load for the Boiler:Steam.
> > > > > > > > 3) Therefore, there is no gas consumption.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com,
"ellinas.1984"
> > > > > > > > <ellinas.1984@ ...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hello group,
> > > > > > > > > The facility I am modeling has two boilers. I specified
> > one of
> > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > under the boiler object in EnergyPlus just to see how it
> > would
> > > > > > run. I
> > > > > > > > > also specified the gas rate schedule. However, when I
> > run the
> > > > > > > > > simulation and view the results, I get values of zero
> > for the
> > > > > > monthly
> > > > > > > > > gas usages. Unlike the results from the electricity rate
> > > > schedule
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > I specified, where it shows the monthly usage in the
> > results,
> > > > > I get
> > > > > > > > > nothing for the gas. Is there anyone out there that
knows
> > > how to
> > > > > > help
> > > > > > > > > me solve this problem?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > > > > > Dimos
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > p.s. I uploaded my idf file. It is bakery3.idf with the
> > > subtitle
> > > > > > "gas
> > > > > > > > > rate usage values" under the problem submittal folder.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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