Hello Dr. Li, hello Linda,
Thank you very much for your help and your advices.
I didn?t know the Helpdesk, but I think this will help me very much.
> I am interested to know what is the surfaces as part of a thermal activated concrete > ceiling.
> Were you trying to include the thermal expansion variation into the surface dimension > entries?
> Normally, ceiling is flat. If one side is flat and the other surface changes, you can use the > flat surface and leave the other side undefined.
Let me try to describe the ceiling and where the problem comes from:
The geometry of the building I have to simulate is therefore tricky, because it is build out of a half ellipse and a half circle. In the circle area there is no problem with the ceiling, but in the ellipse section. The ceiling has a normal height of 3.54 m but at the connection to the façade it goes up to 3.75 m. The distance to the façade is 1.8 m at that point. This is because between the ceiling and the floor in the next level there is a 40 cm hollow floor for the installations.
From the geometry then comes a little torsion. No Problem when you build the segment on the building site.
The whole ceiling shall be thermal activated. So if I understand your question right, you want to know what that means, excuse me if that?s not right. Thermal activated concrete or thermal activated construction elements means that in the ceiling, floor or wall are pipes where hot or cold water can circulate and heats or cools the construction element. This is like a floor heating however the pipes aren?t on the floor but in it.
I Hope I understood your question right.
As far as I know this kind of construction can be simulated in Energy plus over the Construction with internal sources and Low Temp Radiant System:Hydronic. That is how I understood the Manuel and my tutor told me that this is right. If not I think I have a problem.
> I usually get this type of small errors due to importing design from another software. I > would look at the adjacent surfaces, whether I can compensate manually. For example, if > the error vertex is on a wall, and the wall edges are parallel/vertical, you can add the error > to the surface and make it flat. The wall will now be a parallelogram and still remains flat.
> However, adjusting the error in this way is a little tricky, because the error is caused by > the conversion rounding off error. If you re-import the design again, the error may be
> moved to some where else.
> If you are converting the dimensions from inch to meter, for example, try keeping the
> inches to the nearest fraction before conversion, or enter the same decimal number for the
> ceiling height and a flat ground floor.
> For roof and shades, etc., the two triangle method is a quicker fix on the IDF file, by
> splitting surface into two, using a text editor. If you group the x,y,z, on the same line for > each vertex, the change can be very easy carried out and verified.
> Duplicate the object, delete the 3rd vertex from the original object, change the name of
> the new object, and delete the first vertex. To change the vertex number from 4 to 3 can
> be done with find and replace for the whole group of objects.
> However, your errors are about one millimeter each, and can therefore be ignored.
Thank you for the advices above. I have talked to my tutor after your and Ms. Lawries (Is this correct so, or would it be better if I would write Lindas? I?m not sure how this is been handled in English correspondence) Mail, and he said I can ignore the error. But I?ll try your advices when I have finished my thesis to improve my Energy Plus knowledge.
With best thanks and best regards,
Bernd Worm
--- On Mon, 10/20/08, Yuen Liu <yli006@hotmail. com> wrote:
From: Yuen Liu <yli006@hotmail. com>
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: non-planar
To: energyplus_support@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, October 20, 2008, 2:46 PM
Hi, Bernd
I am interested to know what is the surfaces as part of a thermal activated concrete ceiling. Were you trying to include the thermal expansion variation into the surface dimension entries?
Normally, ceiling is flat. If one side is flat and the other surface changes, you can use the flat surface and leave the other side undefined.
I usually get this type of small errors due to importing design from another software. I would look at the adjacent surfaces, whether I can compensate manually. For example, if the error vertex is on a wall, and the wall edges are parallel/vertical, you can add the error to the surface and make it flat. The wall will now be a parallelogram and still remains flat.
However, adjusting the error in this way is a little tricky, because the error is caused by the conversion rounding off error. If you re-import the design again, the error may be moved to some where else.
If you are converting the dimensions from inch to meter, for example, try keeping the inches to the nearest fraction before conversion, or enter the same decimal number for the ceiling height and a flat ground floor...
For roof and shades, etc., the two triangle method is a quicker fix on the IDF file, by splitting surface into two, using a text editor. If you group the x,y,z, on the same line for each vertex, the change can be very easy carried out and verified.
Duplicate the object, delete the 3rd vertex from the original object, change the name of the new object, and delete the first vertex. To change the vertex number from 4 to 3 can be done with find and replace for the whole group of objects.
However, your errors are about one millimeter each, and can therefore be ignored.
I am a member of the group, and not an EPus support person.
Dr. Li
To: EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com
From: bernd.worm@yahoo. com
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:15:27 -0700
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: non-planar
|
Hello,
Thank you very much for the answer. I know that I'll get a deviation in the calculation results, but I talked about this with my tutor and he said it would be ok, when the non-planar surfaces wouldn't end in a great error.
But I don't realy understand your sentence about User to User Forum. If I said something wrong or in a rude way please excuse me, that wasn't my intention. My English isn't very well and so the messages maybe sounds different as I think it sounds.
Best regards,
Bernd
--- On Sun, 10/19/08, Linda Lawrie <linda@lawrie. com> wrote:
From: Linda Lawrie <linda@lawrie. com>
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_ Support] Re: non-planar
To: EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 2:49 PM
Remember this is now a user-to-user forum.
Yes, you can likely ignore these small out of plane diifferences.
But it's your thesis, not mine.
Linda
At 05:42 AM 10/15/2008, bernd.worm wrote:
Hello,
I have a similar problem like it is described below. I'm designing a
building with a complex geometry and so I have non planar surfaces
between the ceiling and the façade. How far will this effect the
simulation? Or can I ignore these minimal (between 0,137 and 1,505mm)
non-planar surfaces? I'm asking, because it would be very difficult to
straighten this out (for example divide them up into triangles),
because the surfaces are part of a thermal activated concrete ceiling.
Thank you for help.
Best regards,
Bernd Worm
Non-planar surfaces:
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA 11", Max "out of line"=1.37667E- 003
at Vertex # 1
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA 1", Max "out of line"=1.23966E- 004 at
Vertex # 2
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA 2", Max "out of line"=3.69127E- 004 at
Vertex # 1
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA 3", Max "out of
line"=6.07086E- 004 at
Vertex # 2
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA 4", Max "out of line"=8.32281E- 004 at
Vertex # 1
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA 5", Max "out of line"=1.03877E- 003 at
Vertex # 2
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA 6", Max "out of line"=1.21873E- 003 at
Vertex # 2
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA 7", Max "out of line"=1.36336E- 003 at
Vertex # 2
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA 8", Max "out of line"=1.46234E- 003 at
Vertex # 2
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA 9", Max "out of line"=1.50545E- 003 at
Vertex # 1
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA 10", Max "out of line"=1.47954E- 003
at Vertex # 1
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA 12", Max "out of line"=1.19066E- 003
at Vertex # 2
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA 13", Max "out of line"=9.22960E- 004
at Vertex # 1
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA 14", Max "out of line"=5.85343E- 004
at Vertex # 4
Possible non-planar surface:"TBA
15", Max "out of line"=2.00987E- 004
at Vertex # 3
--- In EnergyPlus_Support@ yahoogroups. com, Linda Lawrie <linda@...> wrote:
>
> It depends on how far they are out of planar and what you are trying
> to study with your model.
>
> At 05:02 PM 3/30/2008, Danny Bishop wrote:
> >I have a model that has some non-planar surfaces, and some adjacent
surfaces
> >that are non-coplanar. Given that these are just out, will this
introduce
> >any significant errors to the calculations? It will be quite an
effort to
> >straighten these out, and not worth it if the difference is minimal.
>
> Linda
>
> EnergyPlus WebSite: http://www.energypl us.gov
> Owner: EnergyPlus_Support list
> Member: EnergyPlus Development Team
>
>
>
> [Non-text
portions of this message have been removed]
>
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