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Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff





Dear Dr.Li thank you very very much
could you please see the excel file and idf file that i attached them by this mail?

From: YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support <energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:11 PM
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

 
Hi, T.T
 
When yhe object asks you to enter a schedule, you can provide one.  Otherwise, you must provide your own controller, manager, etc.
 
The boiler temperature is set in the object as shown in red below.
==================
Boiler:HotWater,
Central Boiler, !- Name
NaturalGas, !- Fuel Type
autosize, !- Nominal Capacity {W}
0.8, !- Nominal Thermal Efficiency
, !- Efficiency Curve Temperature Evaluation Variable
linear, !- Normalized Boiler Efficiency Curve Name
80, !- Design Water Outlet Temperature {C}
autosize, !- Design Water Flow Rate {m3/s}
0, !- Minimum Part Load Ratio
1.2, !- Maximum Part Load Ratio
1.0, !- Optimum Part Load Ratio
Central Boiler inlet Node, !- Boiler Water Inlet Node Name
Central Boiler Outlet Node, !- Boiler Water Outlet Node Name
100., !- Water Outlet Upper Temperature Limit {C}
ConstantFlow; !- Boiler Flow Mode
===========================
I do not know whether PLR=1.2 make sense.  Optimum PLR = 1, also does not make sense.
 
The heater would be on all the time.   Optimum PLR is usually set to 0.5.
 i want  :when boiler is on,  it works with full capacity and PLR=1 when boiler is on
but as i highlighted  in file excel when inlet boiler temperature reahced 67C then boiler will be off , i set
  HW Loop Temp Schedule,   !- Name
    Temperature,             !- Schedule Type Limits Name
    Through: 12/31,          !- Field 1
    For: Alldays,            !- Field 2
    Until: 24:00,  67;       !- Field 4
PlantLoop,
    Hot Water Loop,          !- Name
    Water,                   !- Fluid Type
    ,                        !- User Defined Fluid Type
    Hot Loop Operation,      !- Plant Equipment Operation Scheme Name
    HW Supply Outlet Node,   !- Loop Temperature Setpoint Node Name
    100,                     !- Maximum Loop Temperature {C}
    5,                       !- Minimum Loop Temperature {C}
    autosize,                !- Maximum Loop Flow Rate {m3/s}
    0.0,                     !- Minimum Loop Flow Rate {m3/s}
   
SetpointManager:Scheduled,
    Hot Water Loop Setpoint Manager,  !- Name
    Temperature,             !- Control Variable
    HW Loop Temp Schedule,   !- Schedule Name
    HW Supply Outlet Node;   !- Setpoint Node or NodeList Name
 
 and as you see in ecxel file when inlet temperature of boiler is greater than 67 then boiler will off,
 
but it is strange  i attached 2 file, one of them is the same as the first but with this difference that i :
 Schedule:Compact,
    HW Loop Temp Schedule,   !- Name
    Temperature,             !- Schedule Type Limits Name
    Through: 12/31,          !- Field 1
    For: Alldays,            !- Field 2
    Until: 24:00,  67;       !- Field 4
 
PlantLoop,
    Hot Water Loop,          !- Name
    Water,                   !- Fluid Type
    ,                        !- User Defined Fluid Type

    Hot Loop Operation,      !- Plant Equipment Operation Scheme Name
    HW Supply Inlet Node,    !- Loop Temperature Setpoint Node Name
    100,                     !- Maximum Loop Temperature {C}
    5,                       !- Minimum Loop Temperature {C}
    autosize,                !- Maximum Loop Flow Rate {m3/s}
    0.0,                     !- Minimum Loop Flow Rate {m3/s}
SetpointManager:Scheduled,
    Hot Water Loop Setpoint Manager,  !- Name
    Temperature,             !- Control Variable
    HW Loop Temp Schedule,   !- Schedule Name
    HW Supply Inlet Node;    !- Setpoint Node or NodeList Name
 
but i see the result that i send it to you (two excel files) are the same , i dont undrestand why?
and also i dont undrestand why INDIRECT WATER HEATER:Water Heater Gas Consumption Rate [W](TimeStep)= 0 in file excels?
and also i see winter design day repeats several times in file excels!
 

 Dr. Li  

 
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 11:24:03 +0000
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

 
Dr.Li it is very strange i use setpoint manager for HW plant such as below :
 
 HW supply Outlet Node,  !- Loop Temperature Setpoint Node Name
 
 HW Loop Temp Schedule,   !- Schedule Name
    HW supply Outlet Node;  !- Setpoint Node or NodeList Name
 
Schedule:Compact,
    HW Loop Temp Schedule,   !- Name
    Temperature,             !- Schedule Type Limits Name
    Through: 12/31,          !- Field 1
    For: Alldays,            !- Field 2
    Until: 24:00, 75;        !- Field 4
 the result are the same when i use
HW supply inlet Node,  !- Loop Temperature Setpoint Node Name
 
You have not set the schedule: 
Hot Water Setpoint Temperature Schedule,  in
!- ==============
SetpointManager:Scheduled,

Domostic Hot Water Loop Setpoint Manager, !- Name

Temperature, !- Control Variable

Hot Water Setpoint Temperature Schedule, !- Schedule Name

Water Heater Use Loop Outlet Node; !- Setpoint Node or NodeList Name
!- =======================
The name in your compact scedule was not the same.
 
 
i see in winter design day  when inlet boiler temperature greater than 75 then it off the boiler in both case.
 
The boiler will go off when the radiators are all off and the DHW tank has reached 75°C,  or whatever you set in the program.
 
i dont undrestand why there is no differenc between them
 
thanks for your attention
 
 
From: YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support <energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 3:16 AM
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

 
I do not understand your question or the purpose of the moving of the pump  position.
 
In your PDF diagram, the pump is in the orage coloured pipe, lower temperature return  pipe.  This is the position in the SVG diagram, and is the recommended branch ordering.
 
It is possible to move the pump to the demand side inlet, but you should ask the support group, if the simulation fails.

The SVG diagram looks fine, although it is not the usual view, which begins with a pump without a by-pass path.  
 
The Winter operation seems correct.
 
 Dr. Li  

 
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:16:33 +0000
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

 
Dear Dr.Li ,
could you please see the file that i attached it ?
there is pump as first object in supply side in example files of energyplus , i want to know there is problem if i use pump after water heater ?
there is no problem in energyplus simulation that i use bypass with pump ?
 
thanks
From: YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support <energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 4:08 AM
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

 
Algorithm is used to design a software for simulation.
 
In the earlier version of EPlus, I seem to remember, there was a pump by-pass.  The newer version does not seem to have that in the examples of the example file.
 
The work around is to leave the pump in and reduce the pressure to a smaller value to reflect the temperature difference of the up and down pipes which created a pressure difference.
 
Simulate it without the by-pass and see how much is the pump power.  If it is not significant, simply ignore the pump power.  You cannot really stop the pump, as the equation used for simulation requires a pressure difference to circulate the water.
 
Therefore, instead of using a pump, you will have substitute the equation with one that produces the pressure difference due to temperature difference.  This is what I meant by changing the algorithm in simulation.
 
The tank can be controlled to the 80 - 65 range without the pump control.
 
The zone thermotat if is a common one would turn on and off the pump for all the radiators.
In this case you will not have a thermostat control in each room.  If the room have different thermal characteristics, the EPlus simulation will show the differences in room temperature.

 Dr. Li  

 
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:09:44 +0000
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

 
yes exactly we use pump by bypass mode . what do you mean by different algorithm?

From: YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support <energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:24 PM
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

 
If you turn on and off the pump at 65°C, to implement the pump by pass mode.  Again, it is a different algorithm.

 Dr. Li  

 
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:43:08 +0000
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

 
i want to :
if inlet water pump > 65C then pump will be off
and if inlet water pump < 65 then pump will be on
 
for this type of controling can we use two availabilityManager:
 
one availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff  :for  inlet water pump > 65C then pump will be off .
and another availabilityManager: low temperaturTurnon : for inlet water pump < 65 then pump will be on.
is that right?
thanks
 
 
From: Richard Raustad <RRaustad@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

 
The availability manager actually turns off the pump (or fan for air systems). So any equipment on that loop will be off.

On 1/27/2012 11:25 AM, Tooran T wrote:
 


From: YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support <energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 7:31 PM
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

  thanks Dr.Li ,
i m not good at english so mybye i dont undrestand your word exactly  .you say : "  If the avilability manager is associated with the heater, it turns off the heater." and
" The size and type of the heater is another matter" what you mean by heater ?is that baseboard heater or water heater?
 
thank you very much Dr.Li
!- =============
  Sizing:Plant,
Boiler  Loop, !- Plant or Condenser Loop Name
HEATING, !- Loop Type
80., !- Design Loop Exit Temperature {C}
15; !- Loop Design Temperature Difference {deltaC}
!- ======================
 
is all you need to enter in the IDF.  The size and type of the heater is another matter.
=============================
In control engineering most controller has a built in hysteresis.  However, you may not be able to specify it exactly, if it is not designed to be adjustable. 
 
What you are trying to do is to design your own controller.
 Dr. Li  

 
To: energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:21:27 -0500
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

 
If the avilability manager is associated with the heater, it turns off the heater.
 
If the avilability manager is asspcoated with the tank used side, it turns off the loop supply (pump).
 
Sensor node need not be in the same loop, but must respond of the change when the control is activated.  If the temperature falls below the limit, the control is removed.  Back to your thermostat problem.   Set-back is not the same as  limits.

 Dr. Li  

 
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:36:16 +0000
Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

 
Dear memebers ,
ref : Document :EngineeringRefrence.pdf -983
"High temperature turn off :
The input object availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff is used to turn off a central air system or a plant loop if a sensed node temperature exceeds a temperature limit."

i want to know availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff , turn off the plant loop or just the turn off the component ?
for example : i set field :Sensor Node name : at the outlet of boiler .. in this plant loop there is pump and boiler as a component.

then availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff turn off boiler or plant loop ?if it turn off the plant loop it means it turned off pump too?

thanks






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