I am not sure what you are going to do with a storage tank.
I mentioned that a storage tank has three parts. To use it you need to add two loops and place it in a zone.
If you look at the solar collector example, the solar collector is a source loop and the DHW is the use loop.
If you connect the source side to a chiller branch, the tank water will be cooled.
If you do not have the used side loop, and place the tank in a zone, the tank will cool the room via conduction through the tank body. The conductance of the tank is one of the fields.
The source is still a loop, therefore you need to declare it as a separate plant loop for charging the tank from the chiller plant loop.
If you want to place ice into the tank, you may be able to do this using the district cooling as a source to cool the water to 0°C. and not as solid ice. Any phase change operation need to be provided special as a curve to match the demand on heat transfer basis. The storage tank object itself may not have this capability.
This is why I said that I do not know how the EPlus is being used to model PCM processes.
When a block of ice is placed in a zone, the zone heat demand is reduced, and this is used to reduce the HVAC load. How much to reduce is to be determined by the rate the ice melt in one time step. User has to enter this as a value. may be as a equipment load with a schedule.
There is an example on usage of storage tank for DHW with HVA plant loops. The tank is charged using the HW plant. The storage tank feeds the DHW. The same tank appears in two loops, one for charging, and one for discharging. This may be a better example to use, and to move the charging loop to the ChW loop.
To summarize, your error is probably because you did not add the plant loop to place the storage tank.
Dr. Li
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: jeremiah@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 13:16:39 -0700
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Detailed ICE storage - for PCMs? Nodes & curves question
__._,_.___
Primary EnergyPlus support is found at:
http://energyplus.helpserve.com or send a message to energyplus-support@xxxxxxxx
The primary EnergyPlus web site is found at:
http://www.energyplus.gov
The group web site is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EnergyPlus_Support/
Attachments are currently allowed but be mindful that not everyone has a high speed connection. Limit attachments to small files.
EnergyPlus Documentation is searchable. Open EPlusMainMenu.pdf under the Documentation link and press the "search" button.
![]()
__,_._,___
I mentioned that a storage tank has three parts. To use it you need to add two loops and place it in a zone.
If you look at the solar collector example, the solar collector is a source loop and the DHW is the use loop.
If you connect the source side to a chiller branch, the tank water will be cooled.
If you do not have the used side loop, and place the tank in a zone, the tank will cool the room via conduction through the tank body. The conductance of the tank is one of the fields.
The source is still a loop, therefore you need to declare it as a separate plant loop for charging the tank from the chiller plant loop.
If you want to place ice into the tank, you may be able to do this using the district cooling as a source to cool the water to 0°C. and not as solid ice. Any phase change operation need to be provided special as a curve to match the demand on heat transfer basis. The storage tank object itself may not have this capability.
This is why I said that I do not know how the EPlus is being used to model PCM processes.
When a block of ice is placed in a zone, the zone heat demand is reduced, and this is used to reduce the HVAC load. How much to reduce is to be determined by the rate the ice melt in one time step. User has to enter this as a value. may be as a equipment load with a schedule.
There is an example on usage of storage tank for DHW with HVA plant loops. The tank is charged using the HW plant. The storage tank feeds the DHW. The same tank appears in two loops, one for charging, and one for discharging. This may be a better example to use, and to move the charging loop to the ChW loop.
To summarize, your error is probably because you did not add the plant loop to place the storage tank.
Dr. Li
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: jeremiah@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 13:16:39 -0700
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Detailed ICE storage - for PCMs? Nodes & curves question
Dr Li,
I am still having issues with node connection of the branch to connect the ice storage object-
I am not using an HVAC template- and have tried to connect the out node to the in node of the ice storage, and the other way around but I just keep making error files- could you please provide any more guidance?
Thanks
Jeremiah D. Crossett
CleanTech Analytics
503-688-8951
This document may contain valuable information proprietary to CleanTech Analytics which is private and confidential. It may not be shared, copied, stored or transmitted in any form without the prior written consent of CleanTech Analytics
On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 5:15 AM, YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
YOur points 1 and 2 has already been replied by others.
I use the DesignDay objects as a quick match to the local weather data. The date, the day type, and the skyclearance are modifiedfor the four season values. I do not follow the ASHRAE guidelines.
I could not open your link to the Goodle. however, it does not matter, as the property of the PCM does not change the simulation modelling requirements.
EPlus is not meant to verify curves without know demand. With varying demand using weather file as input data, it is not easy to match the PLR, flow volume, etc. on the curve. This is why you will need controlled zones rather than the environment to do the test.
4) The branch ordering requirement is more or less the order in the SVG, when you can create one. Each loop must be groupled together if possible, and not always necessary. The .bnd file may also give you some more detail on which are the one not properly named orordered. Use the HVACtemplate and study the expIDF file.
If you are placing the tank in a zone, think about replacing the base board heater with the ice tank cooler.
So you start with the Unitary in the zone, choose the base board heater, and ehen replace the HW with ChW,
etc.
5) I suggest the storage room, because this will provide all the walls. The EIR can work at different temperature with different coolant. A storage tank need to be charged as well. You cannot charge it with ice directly. Useing the District cooling may be possible.
For a simple limited number of variables, a hand calculation or a special program to evaluate the formula is a more suitable alternative. This is the reason why once the building heat characteristic is known, the other part of the model does not change. All these LEED certification by changing the HVAC is to vary the comfort level of the building. External shading, heat flow control on the internal heat load will result in energy saving. Tis is one reason why I do not bother with ASHRAE HVAC guidelines. The building material and construction sectin of the ASHRAE recinnebdatuib must be followed.
6) Refrigeration room is the equivalent to the storage tank and it may be part of the controlled environtment.
Dr. Li
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 11:49:06 -0700
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Detailed ICE storage - for PCMs? Nodes & curves question
Dr. Li
- I realized that GJ is Gigi joules shortly after the post when I switched to IP units and noticed the conversion to ton/hr- I was thrown off initially by the capacity concept, as I was looking for a tank size for gallons of water/ice, but have not found any reference to such a tank. I am now guessing that the GJ/Tonhr is the tank capacity- and that water must have a specific J/Btu of storage capacity. The Pure PCM materiel I am experimenting with is rated in Btu per pound, so I think could just specify the amount of Btu/J capacity of the PCM for this item. (If I where using water/Ice I suppose I would have to find the thermal capacity for the total tank amount but not sure)
- I have heard mixed messages about design day objects- for instance I have been told that all design day objects should be ran to produce accurate sizing by Linda & Drew, but told by Paulo the same as you say of only two needed. For using two I wonder what is the best way to choose the correct design days, and for some time thought it made more since to use Weather file:extreme summer week/Weather file:extreme winter week so that I could run the same building at many locations during parametric runs and so I did not have to make arbitrary choices of Design Days. Lately I have just been running files with all Design Days to be on the safe side. I guess ASHRAE standards would be a good place for me to research for the best day type to choose/use. (your advise on this was appreciated)
- Research Goal: I want to model the thermal energy storage functions of Pure PCM's, the current PCM modeling capabilities of e+ seem to be geared towards PCM's impregnated within other materials, and I want to check the difference in using them as a energy storage vessel, as well as test if it would be possible to use them in both ways simultaneously. I have seen empirical data showing benefits that exceed the benefits modeled with the current finite difference approach, so am experimenting to see if I can use the ice storage detailed object to more accurately depict the full benefits of pure phase change materials. The materials I am doing experimentation with can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag7cD5ZV9QwRdHlCSWVfWWV2WG5rQjdaN0dLTGlab2c
- I need to read the IO, as I guess I do not understand the Branch objects very well (I am spoiled in my use of design builder or HVAC templates so have not created a HVAC system line by line, nor have I edited branch objects before but now am dedicated to learn how this works) Are you saying that the placement of the object in the branch needs to be in a specific order position? I thought order position was not important and that the node connections where all that mattered.
- I read the IO on ice storage and it seems that the chiller is used to charge ICE STORAGE, but I am looking to use a material with a melt temp in the 20-30C range so would want to charge the PCM/ICE with zone or possibly outdoor air, and am not sure if this is possible.
- I did not think of the refrigerated room experiment, and will have to research this in the IO and give it a try.
Part of the reason I am interested in this object is the difference in real world results/my hand calculations of PCM thermal energy storage potential and Energy Plus modeled results. My hand calc can be viewed/experimented with here:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag7cD5ZV9QwRdFJ1X0JpT1hOcEVMTk5fSlJDZXU4SHcThank you much for your response- I did not think anyone was goung to respond to this thread-Kind regards-
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 10:50 AM, YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I have tried running your IDF, but do not know what you are trying to do.
GJ is GigaJoules.
I do not know why you have so many designDay objects. Only two are needed for sizing. Four, if you are trying the four season solar beam study, and/or the transistion operation of the HVAC system..
Where do you intend to insert the storage tank? The pipe object itself is not in the correct order postion of the IDF, therefore the branch was not recognized and flagged as a severe error.
If you want to discharge the tank load in a zone, then it should be declared as a zone equipment, or a tank placed in a zone.
I do not know how you can charge an ICE STORAGE TANK. Is it a new object available in EPlus? This is the first time I come across the ThermalStorage:Ice:Detailed. I shall try to look it up in the ref. manuals.
You should use a refrigerated room and control its temperature for the experiment. The PCM may be installed as the walls of the centrol zone with the four other peripheral zones as in the 5-zone building as controlled zones.
Without the ice strage branch, the IDF run was sucessfull.
Dr. Li
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: jeremiah@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:20:22 -0700
Subject: [EnergyPlus_Support] Detailed ICE storage - for PCMs? Nodes & curves question
Hello-I am attempting to experiment with the detailed Ice storage object, as I noticed it has "freezing temperature of storage medium" rather than assuming freezing temp for water of 0C/32F. I added the objects from the example file to to a model I have been working on and attempted to connect the nodes, but when trying to run E+ crashes. Also I was thinking to use data from DSC tests of PCM for the charge and discharge curves, but am not sure how to approach it. (I am guessing 1=solid and 0= melt, but am unsure), also I wanted to use the thickness of PCM for the volume of the storage tank, but am unsure about the GJ, what unit would this be? Any advise would be great, and thanks in advance-DSC curves, and thickness info-https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag7cD5ZV9QwRdHlCSWVfWWV2WG5rQjdaN0dLTGlab2cBelow is the copy paste's from the IDF..
Name Ice Tank Availability Schedule Name ON Capacity 0.5 Inlet Node Name Ice Tank Inlet Node Outlet Node Name Ice Tank Outlet Node Discharging Curve Object Type QuadraticLinear Discharging Curve Name DischargeCurve Charging Curve Object Type QuadraticLinear Charging Curve Name ChargeCurve Timestep of the Curve Data 1 Parasitic Electric Load During Discharging 0.0001 Parasitic Electric Load During Charging 0.0002 Tank Loss Coefficient 0.0003 Freezing Temperature of Storage Medium 23 Name DischargeCurve ChargeCurve Coefficient1 Constant 0 0 Coefficient2 x 0.09 0.09 Coefficient3 x**2 -0.15 -0.15 Coefficient4 y 0.612 0.612 Coefficient5 x*y -0.324 -0.324 Coefficient6 x**2*y -0.216 -0.216 Minimum Value of x 0 0 Maximum Value of x 1 1 Minimum Value of y 0 0 Maximum Value of y 9.9 9.9 Minimum Curve Output Name Cooling Supply Outlet Maximum Flow Rate 0 Pressure Drop Curve Name Component 1 Object Type ThermalStorage:Ice:Detailed Component 1 Name Ice Tank Component 1 Inlet Node Name Ice Tank Inlet Node Component 1 Outlet Node Name Ice Tank Outlet Node Component 1 Branch Control Type PASSIVE Component 2 Object Type Pipe:Adiabatic Component 2 Name Supply Side Outlet Pipe Component 2 Inlet Node Name Ice Tank Outlet Node Component 2 Outlet Node Name CW Supply Outlet Node Component 2 Branch Control Type PASSIVE Component 3 Object Type Component 3 Name Component 3 Inlet Node Name This document may contain valuable information proprietary to CleanTech Analytics which is private and confidential. It may not be shared, copied, stored or transmitted in any form without the prior written consent of CleanTech Analytics
__._,_.___
Primary EnergyPlus support is found at:
http://energyplus.helpserve.com or send a message to energyplus-support@xxxxxxxx
The primary EnergyPlus web site is found at:
http://www.energyplus.gov
The group web site is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EnergyPlus_Support/
Attachments are currently allowed but be mindful that not everyone has a high speed connection. Limit attachments to small files.
EnergyPlus Documentation is searchable. Open EPlusMainMenu.pdf under the Documentation link and press the "search" button.
Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
__,_._,___