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RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] Steam Boiler GetSpecificHeatGlycol warning
I forwarded the group email to Gard as a follow up to question about the steam baseboard volume flow units.� Turns out that the input is m^3/s of 100C steam.
Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)
Staff Consultant
SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER
781.907.9000�main
781.907.9350 direct�
781.907.9009�fax
www.sgh.com
From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 2:17 AM
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Steam Boiler GetSpecificHeatGlycol warning
Hi Ned,
Did you submit this to the Helpdesk? It would be good to capture this info somehow.
Regards,
Jean
Sent from my iPhone
On 17.03.2013, at 16:30, "Edward G. Lyon" <<mailto:eglyon@xxxxxxx>eglyon@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> �
> For those of you who may be interested:
> �
> It appears that there is no practical way to avoid this warning. If the steam plant temperature is equal to or greater than 100C+SubcoolC on the radiator, the warning is apparent generated for every iteration of the radiator because the outlet condition is calculated to be greater than 100C.� With the plant at 105C and the radiator sub cool at 5.1C, the warning still appears at low demand. Apparently the when the minimum steam gulp is taken and the demand load is very low, not enough energy is removed to lower discharge temperature from the radiator to the acceptable 100C.� I have tried reducing both the steam temperature and the sub cooling, but odd things happen and outlet conditions went to negative temperatures for some reason.
> �
> I can only assume that conservation of energy applies in the model, and any excess energy at the radiator outlet means less energy needs to go in at the boiler.
> �
> This may be an Ideal Load radiator model, but it is far from an Ideal Steam Radiator model.� An Ideal Steam Radiator model would always discharge condensate no matter what the inlet steam conditions are (no need to specify sub cooling), and it would have a minimum steam gulp when cycled on for a short duration that could overheat the zone.
> �
> Fortunately, this should not be a large error for most systems where steam loop temperature matches the radiator sub cool setting.� If the demand is large enough or the radiator is scheduled off during periods of light demand, the error warning may not occur at all.� Mismatching the steam temperature and generating the warning all the time �probably affects the energy consumption of the boiler.
> �
> Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)
> Staff Consultant
> SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER
> 781.907.9000�main
> 781.907.9350 direct�
> 781.907.9009�fax
> <http://www.sgh.com>> www.sgh.com
> �
> From: <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [<mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Edward G. Lyon
> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 11:26 AM
> To: <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] Steam Boiler GetSpecificHeatGlycol warning
> �
> �
> Well as it turns out, this is an inherited problem.� I ran the example file 5ZoneSteamBaseboard.idf and it throws the same warning�.
> �
> Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)
> Staff Consultant
> SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER
> 781.907.9000�main
> 781.907.9350 direct�
> 781.907.9009�fax
> <http://www.sgh.com>> www.sgh.com
> �
> From: <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [<mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Richard Raustad
> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 8:48 AM
> To: <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Steam Boiler GetSpecificHeatGlycol warning
> �
> �
> These 2 files did not look like they attached when I looked at the Yahoo group site, instead they were inline which was not my intention.
> I upload them instead to the Files\Examples folder.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> Subject:
>
> Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Steam Boiler GetSpecificHeatGlycol warning
>
> Date:
>
> Fri, 15 Mar 2013 08:01:17 -0400
>
> From:
>
> Richard Raustad <mailto:RRaustad@xxxxxxxxxxxx><<mailto:RRaustad@xxxxxxxxxxxx>RRaustad@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> Organization:
>
> Florida Solar Energy Center
>
> To:
>
> <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
> Did you use the correct pump?
>
> Pump:VariableSpeed:Condensate,
> ������ \memo This pump model is described in the ASHRAE secondary HVAC toolkit.
> ������ \memo Variable Speed Condensate pump for Steam Systems
>
> It can be frustrating to manually create plant loops. But really, they are not that hard to understand. For example, I have used this " single cooling and heating plant" many times to connect to a single water based equipment model (usually VRF). Bottom line, since I already have this plant available it is very easy to add to any input file using macro language.
>
> �##fileprefix C:\MyProjects\EnergyPlus\EnergyPlus\Inputs\
> �##include VRFSinglePlantLoopBoilerTower.idf
>
> The only connection between this stand alone plant input file and the main input file is here (this is in the main input file):
>
> � AirConditioner:VariableRefrigerantFlow,
> ��� VRFCondInNode,���������� !- Condenser Inlet Node Name
> ��� VRFCondOutNode,��������� !- Condenser Outlet Node Name
>
>
> I'm including both files for review.
>
> Main input file: VariableRefrigerantFlow_5Zone_HeatRecovery_WaterCooled.imf
> Plant library:� VRFSinglePlantLoopBoilerTower.idf
>
> Using this method, basically from a library of plant configurations, it becomes easy to implement.
>
>
> I developed the PTAC model in E+ and do not understand your comment on configuration.
>
>
>
>
> On 3/14/2013 5:18 PM, Edward G. Lyon wrote:
>> I cobbled together a steam boiler system by robbing 5ZoneSteamBaseboard.idf so I could supply one steam baseboard in my model.� I now fully understand how little I know about piecing together a functional mechanical system from EnergyPlus components without using templates (translation: what a pile of junk to add just to run a little radiator).� I did not autosize anything because I know the radiator flow rate already.� PlantPumps:CalcPumps is throwing a GetSpecificHeatGlycol warning because it has a 107C temperature fluid.� I suspect that the plant is so oversized that it supplies steam to the pump, but I would appreciate any suggestions for resolving this without reverting to an autosized solution.
>> �
>> Also, any references that simply explain how to take a set of fans, pipes, and coils in a box and make the appropriate nodes, loops, branches and controls for EnergyPlus would be appreciated, I’ve never seen a PTAC in the field that actually looks like the EnergyPlus PTAC �most people use, so I should probably build my own� &nbbsp;
>> �
>> Ned Lyon, P.E. (MA, WV)
>> Staff Consultant
>>
>> SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & HEGER�
>> ��� �| Engineering of Structures and Building Enclosures
>>
>> 41 Seyon Street, Bldg. 1, Suite 500
>> Waltham, MA 02453
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 781.907.9000�main
>> 781.907.9350 direct�
>> 781.907.9009�fax
>> <http://www.sgh.com>>> www.sgh.com
>
>
>
>
>
> -- <o:p></o:p>
> Richard A. Raustad<o:p></o:p>
> Senior Research Engineer<o:p></o:p>
> Florida Solar Energy Center<o:p></o:p>
> University of Central Florida<o:p></o:p>
> 1679 Clearlake Road<o:p></o:p>
> Cocoa, FL 32922-5703<o:p></o:p>
> Phone: (321) 638-1454<o:p></o:p>
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> <o:p></o:p>
> UCF - From Promise to Prominence: Celebrating 40 Years<o:p></o:p>
> �
> �
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