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Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Problem with UpdateZoneSizing: Heating supply air temperature
Well, I did a bit of confusion... this schedule is wrong.
I didn't understand if the 1st one is correct, what about the definition of summerdesignday and winterdesignday? They are not explicit in the time definition... Is that the problem?
On Friday, May 2, 2014 4:40 PM, Marco Aldegheri <m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
But in this way, the winterdesignday and the summer design day should be included in each periods... a schedule like this one could be better?
Schedule:Compact,
P4:P4%A2Zn1k Heating Setpoint Schedule, !- Name
Temperature, !- Schedule Type Limits Name
Through: 22 Apr, !- Field 1
For: SummerDesignDay, !- Field 2
Until: 24:00, !- Field 3
-50, !- Field 4
For: WinterDesignDays AllOtherdays, !- Field 2
Until: 07:00, !- Field 3
16, !- Field 4
Until: 08:00, !- Field 5
20, !- Field 6
Until: 12:00, !- Field 7
16, !- Field 8
Until: 14:00, !- Field 9
20, !- Field 10
Until: 19:00, !- Field 11
16, !- Field 12
Until: 23:00, !- Field 13
20, !- Field 14
Until: 24:00, !- Field 15
16, !- Field 16
Through: 8 Oct, !- Field 17
For: SummerDesignDay, !- Field 2
Until: 24:00, !- Field 3
-50, !- Field 4
For: WinterDesignDays AllOtherdays, !- Field 2
Until: 07:00, !- Field 3
16, !- Field 4
Until: 08:00, !- Field 5
20, !- Field 6
Until: 12:00, !- Field 7
16, !- Field 8
Until: 14:00, !- Field 9
20, !- Field 10
Until: 19:00, !- Field 11
16, !- Field 12
Until: 23:00, !- Field 13
20, !- Field 14
Until: 24:00, !- Field 15
16, !- Field 16
Through: 8 Oct, !- Field 17
For: AllDays, !- Field 18
Until: 24:00, !- Field 19
-50; !- Field 20
On Friday, May 2, 2014 4:10 PM, Jean Marais <jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
possibly...AllDays includes the winter and the summer designdays which sets the setpoint at -50. heating setpoints less than 0 get rounded to 0 by the program as per the idd.
2014-05-02 15:54 GMT+02:00 Marco Aldegheri <<mailto:m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx>m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx>:
>
>
>
> Well Jean, you explainaition was really clear.
>
> Anyway, about the setpoint schedule manager, it was created by DesignBuilder.
> I would remember you that I have only heating.
>
> For each zone I find that in E+ a dualsetpoint is created like this:
>
> !- =========== ALL OBJECTS IN CLASS: ZONECONTROL:THERMOSTAT ===========
>
> ZoneControl:Thermostat,
> P0:P0%A1Zn5i Thermostat, !- Name
> P0:P0%A1Zn5i, !- Zone or ZoneList Name
> 48, !- Control Type Schedule Name
> ThermostatSetpoint:DualSetpoint, !- Control 1 Object Type
> P0:P0%A1Zn5i Dual SP; !- Control 1 Name
>
> where
>
> ! Schedule: Control type schedule: Always 4
> Schedule:Compact,
> 48, !- Name
> Any Number, !- Schedule Type Limits Name
> Through: 12/31, !- Field 1
> For: AllDays, !- Field 2
> Until: 24:00, !- Field 3
> 4 ; !- Field 4
>
> and an example of heating schedule is like that
> Schedule:Compact,
> P4:P4%A2Zn1k Heating Setpoint Schedule, !- Name
> Temperature, !- Schedule Type Limits Name
> Through: 22 Apr, !- Field 1
> For: AllDays, !- Field 2
> Until: 07:00, !- Field 3
> 16, !- Field 4
> Until: 08:00, !- Field 5
> 20, !- Field 6
> Until: 12:00, !- Field 7
> 16, !- Field 8
> Until: 14:00, !- Field 9
> 20, !- Field 10
> Until: 19:00, !- Field 11
> 16, !- Field 12
> Until: 23:00, !- Field 13
> 20, !- Field 14
> Until: 24:00, !- Field 15
> 16, !- Field 16
> Through: 8 Oct, !- Field 17
> For: AllDays, !- Field 18
> Until: 24:00, !- Field 19
> -50, !- Field 20
> Through: 31 Dec, !- Field 21
> For: AllDays, !- Field 22
> Until: 07:00, !- Field 23
> 16, !- Field 24
> Until: 08:00, !- Field 25
> 20, !- Field 26
> Until: 12:00, !- Field 27
> 16, !- Field 28
> Until: 14:00, !- Field 29
> 20, !- Field 30
> Until: 19:00, !- Field 31
> 16, !- Field 32
> Until: 23:00, !- Field 33
> 20, !- Field 34
> Until: 24:00, !- Field 35
> 16; !- Field 36
> and an example of cooling schedule is like that
>
> Schedule:Compact,
> P4:P4%A2Zn1k Cooling Setpoint Schedule, !- Name
> Temperature, !- Schedule Type Limits Name
> Through: 31 Dec, !- Field 1
> For: Weekdays SummerDesignDay, !- Field 2
> Until: 05:00, !- Field 3
> 100, !- Field 4
> Until: 10:00, !- Field 5
> 30, !- Field 6
> Until: 17:00, !- Field 7
> 100, !- Field 8
> Until: 24:00, !- Field 9
> 30, !- Field 10
> For: Weekends, !- Field 11
> Until: 05:00, !- Field 12
> 100, !- Field 13
> Until: 10:00, !- Field 14
> 30, !- Field 15
> Until: 17:00, !- Field 16
> 100, !- Field 17
> Until: 24:00, !- Field 18
> 30, !- Field 19
> For: Holidays, !- Field 20
> Until: 05:00, !- Field 21
> 100, !- Field 22
> Until: 10:00, !- Field 23
> 30, !- Field 24
> Until: 17:00, !- Field 25
> 100, !- Field 26
> Until: 24:00, !- Field 27
> 30, !- Field 28
> For: WinterDesignDay AllOtherDays, !- Field 29
> Until: 24:00, !- Field 30
> 100; !- Field 31
>
>
> But now that I see better, I have a doubt: in the 1st heating schedule maybe I forgot to insert the WinterDesignday and the SummerDesignday... Is that the problem?
> My heating system work only from 01/01 to 22/04 an from 08/10 to 31/12.
> Thanks
On Friday, May 2, 2014 1:33 PM, Jean Marais <<mailto:jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx>jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
thermostat set piont temp = 0.000 C? That looks very suspitious. Check your thermostat schedule.
>
>
> 2014-05-01 17:16 GMT+02:00 Marco Aldegheri <<mailto:m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx>m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx>:
>>
Well, unfotunately I still have the sever error at the end of the simulation.
>>
>> One for each zone.
>>
>> ** Severe ** UpdateZoneSizing: Heating supply air temperature (calculated) within 2C of zone temperature
>> ** ~~~ ** ...check zone thermostat set point and design supply air temperatures
>> ** ~~~ ** ...zone name = P0:P0%A1ZN4B
>> ** ~~~ ** ...design heating load = 0.00 W
>> ** ~~~ ** ...thermostat set piont temp = 0.000 C
>> ** ~~~ ** ...zone temperature = 17.898 C
>> ** ~~~ ** ...supply air temperature = 18.000 C
>> ** ~~~ ** ...temperature difference = 0.10230 C
>> ** ~~~ ** ...calculated volume flow rate = 8253.19807 m3/s
>> ** ~~~ ** ...calculated mass flow rate = 9723.31707 kg/s
>>
>> All outputs are generated anyway... any suggestion?
>>
>> On Thursday, May 1, 2014 2:27 PM, Marco Aldegheri <<mailto:m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx>m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
And i forgot...
>>
>> DesignSpecification:OutdoorAir,
>> P0:P0%A1Zn2r Design Specification Outdoor Air Object, !- Name
>> Flow/Person, !- Outdoor Air Method
>> 0.010000, !- Outdoor Air Flow per Person {m3/s-person}
>> 0.000000, !- Outdoor Air Flow per Zone Floor Area {m3/s-m2}
>> 0.002759, !- Outdoor Air Flow per Zone {m3/s}
>> 0.000000, !- Outdoor Air Flow Air Changes per Hour {1/hr}
>> 2; !- Outdoor Air Flow Rate Fraction Schedule Name
>> On , Marco Aldegheri <<mailto:m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx>m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Ok, I tried this solution but I wish to explain better my system to have a confirmation about my implementation...
>> I have a residential building with 14 flats.
>>
>> The only things I know about my (real) air system are:
>> -the articulation of the loop: Outdoor air->External fan->Heat exchanger->Electric heating coil->Zone->Heat exchanger->Outdoor air
>> -the air temperature of the air flow entering into a zone, which is 18°C if Tair outdoor<=18°C, T in air =Tair outdoor if Tair outdoor is >18°C,
>> -If the outdoor air is <18°C an electric coil will increase it up to 18°C
>> -the maximum air flow rate of the fans which is 0.0238 m3/s,
>> -the ON period of the system (schedule),
>>
>> Each flat has an independent air loop. (in this case P0A1 is a flat)
>>
>>
>>
>> The elements are like these, for fans: I underline the schedule and the flow rate
>>
>> !- =========== ALL OBJECTS IN CLASS: FAN:CONSTANTVOLUME ===========
>>
>> Fan:ConstantVolume,
>> Air Loop P0A1 AHU Extract Fan, !- Name
>> 10010, !- Availability Schedule Name
>> 0.70, !- Fan Total Efficiency
>> 600.00, !- Pressure Rise {Pa}
>> 0.0236, !- Maximum Flow Rate {m3/s}
>> 0.90, !- Motor Efficiency
>> 1.00, !- Motor In Airstream Fraction
>> Air Loop P0A1 Supply Side Inlet, !- Air Inlet Node Name
>> Air Loop P0A1 AHU Extract Fan Air Outlet Node, !- Air Outlet Node Name
>> General; !- End-Use Subcategory
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> For the heating electric coils:
>>
>> Coil:Heating:Electric,
>> P0:P0%A1Zn5i Singolo Canale CAV con ReRiscaldamento Batteria di Riscaldamento, !- Name
>> 10010, !- Availability Schedule Name
>> 1.00, !- Efficiency
>> autosize, !- Nominal Capacity {W}
>> Air Loop P0A1 Zone Splitter Outlet Node 3, !- Air Inlet Node Name
>> P0:P0%A1Zn5i Singolo Canale CAV con ReRiscaldamento Supply Inlet, !- Air Outlet Node Name
>> P0:P0%A1Zn5i Singolo Canale CAV con ReRiscaldamento Supply Inlet; !- Temperature Setpoint Node Name
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In the Sizing:System I set for each loops this...
>>
>> Sizing:System,
>> Air Loop P0A1, !- AirLoop Name
>> VentilationRequirement, !- Type of Load to Size On
>> autosize, !- Design Outdoor Air Flow Rate {m3/s}
>> 1.0, !- Minimum System Air Flow Ratio
>> 5.00, !- Preheat Design Temperature {C}
>> 0.00800, !- Preheat Design Humidity Ratio {kgWater/kgDryAir}
>> 11.00, !- Precool Design Temperature {C}
>> 0.00800, !- Precool Design Humidity Ratio {kgWater/kgDryAir}
>> 12.00, !- Central Cooling Design Supply Air Temperature {C}
>> 20, !- Central Heating Design Supply Air Temperature {C} ****
>> Noncoincident, !- Sizing Option
>> Yes, !- 100% Outdoor Air in Cooling
>> Yes, !- 100% Outdoor Air in Heating
>> 0.00800, !- Central Cooling Design Supply Air Humidity Ratio {kgWater/kgDryAir}
>> 0.00800, !- Central Heating Design Supply Air Humidity Ratio {kgWater/kgDryAir}
>> Designday, !- Cooling Design Air Flow Method
>> 0.0000, !- Cooling Design Air Flow Rate {m3/s}
>> Designday, !- Heating Design Air Flow Method
>> 0.0000, !- Heating Design Air Flow Rate {m3/s}
>> ZoneSum, !- System Outdoor Air Method
>> 1.0000; !- Zone Maximum Outdoor Air Fraction {dimensionless}
>>
>> ****I tried using 18, !- Central Heating Design Supply Air Temperature {C}
>> but I had the same severe error. So I tried to change the value (the original value of this field was 50°C because this idf was generated by DesignBuilder... I don't know why it has been set this to 50°C and especial if my changing is correct)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> for Sizing:Zone I set,
>>
>> Sizing:Zone,
>> P0:P0%A1Zn5i, !- Zone or ZoneList Name
>> SupplyAirTemperature, !- Zone Cooling Design Supply Air Temperature Input Method
>> 14.00, !- Zone Cooling Design Supply Air Temperature {C}
>> 5.00, !- Zone Cooling Design Supply Air Temperature Difference {deltaC}
>> SupplyAirTemperature, !- Zone Heating Design Supply Air Temperature Input Method
>> 18, !- Zone Heating Design Supply Air Temperature {C}
>> 15.00, !- Zone Heating Design Supply Air Temperature Difference {deltaC}
>> 0.0090, !- Zone Cooling Design Supply Air Humidity Ratio {kgWater/kgDryAir}
>> 0.0040, !- Zone Heating Design Supply Air Humidity Ratio {kgWater/kgDryAir}
>> P0:P0%A1Zn5i Design Specification Outdoor Air Object, !- Design Specification Outdoor Air Object Name
>> 1.25, !- Zone Heating Sizing Factor
>> 1.15, !- Zone Cooling Sizing Factor
>> DesignDay, !- Cooling Design Air Flow Method
>> 0.000000, !- Cooling Design Air Flow Rate {m3/s}
>> 0.000760, !- Cooling Minimum Air Flow per Zone Floor Area {m3/s-m2}
>> 0.000000, !- Cooling Minimum Air Flow {m3/s}
>> 0.00, !- Cooling Minimum Air Flow Fraction
>> DesignDay, !- Heating Design Air Flow Method
>> 0.000000, !- Heating Design Air Flow Rate {m3/s}
>> 0.002030, !- Heating Maximum Air Flow per Zone Floor Area {m3/s-m2}
>> 0.141580, !- Heating Maximum Air Flow {m3/s}
>> 0.30, !- Heating Maximum Air Flow Fraction
>> P0:P0%A1Zn5i Design Specification Zone Air Distribution Object; !- Design Specification Zone Air Distribution Object Name
>>
>> On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:41 AM, "<mailto:jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx>jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx" <<mailto:jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx>jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
No. Look in the ioref at the sizing:plant object. You can (now) size the equipment as one does in Europe, by ventilation rate, so that the AHU does not try and meet the zone loads, just brings the air in at the specified temp.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grü�en- Sent from my iPhone (excuse the brevity)
>> i. A.
Jean Marais
b.i.g. bechtold
Tel. +49 30 6706662-23
>> On 01.05.2014, at 09:39, Marco Aldegheri <<mailto:m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx>m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>>
Do you mean the Design outdoor Air Flow rate? Actually it was on: autosize. I set the maximum design air flow for the fans with a project value but maybe the field you are speaking about should be set to the same value.
I have changed it and I'm trying another run.
In an hour I'll have the results.
>>> On , Marco Aldegheri <<mailto:m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx>m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, April 30, 2014 11:35 PM, "<mailto:jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx>jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx" <<mailto:jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx>jeannieboef@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
Without looking at the attatchments, I suspect that you have not set the (I think third field) sizing:system object to size by ventilation rate instead of sensible load.
>>>
>>> Mit freundlichen Grü�en- Sent from my iPhone (excuse the brevity)
>>> i. A.
Jean Marais
b.i.g. bechtold
Tel. +49 30 6706662-23
>>> On 30.04.2014, at 23:02, <<mailto:m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx><mailto:m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx>m.aldegheri@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> I'm having some trouble with a simulation.
>>>>
>>>> In my idf, the HVAC system is composed of 2 different entities: a radiant low temperature heating system and a mechanical ventilation system which should provide only a defined air change in my zones. Each of them works only during winter time.
>>>>
>>>> I upload the .svg to show how the system is realized. In particolar, my mec vent system is not properly a heating system, it provides an only airflow but with a control on the temperature. Just before the entrance of the air flux in a zone, there is a heating coil which should increase the incoming air temperature until 18°C, if the outside air temperature is less than 18°C. If the outside air temperature is >18°C the air flux is not heated by this coil. I should have set this using SetpointManager:OutdoorAirReset,
>>>>
>>>> SetpointManager:OutdoorAirReset,
>>>> Air Loop Setpoint Manager, !- Name
>>>> Temperature, !- Control Variable
>>>> 18.00, !- Setpoint at Outdoor Low Temperature {C}
>>>> -20.00, !- Outdoor Low Temperature {C}
>>>> 18.00, !- Setpoint at Outdoor High Temperature {C}
>>>> 18.00, !- Outdoor High Temperature {C}
>>>> Air Loop Setpoint Manager Node List; !- Setpoint Node or NodeList Namet;
>>>>
>>>> I would like to ask you if do you mind how to fix this error. I have many severe errors like this one, one error for each thermal zone.
>>>>
>>>> ** Severe ** UpdateZoneSizing: Heating supply air temperature (calculated) within 2C of zone temperature
>>>> ** ~~~ ** ...check zone thermostat set point and design supply air temperatures
>>>> ** ~~~ ** ...zone name = P0:P0%A1ZN4B
>>>> ** ~~~ ** ...design heating load = 0.00 W
>>>> ** ~~~ ** ...thermostat set piont temp = 0.000 C
>>>> ** ~~~ ** ...zone temperature = 17.898 C
>>>> ** ~~~ ** ...supply air temperature = 18.000 C
>>>> ** ~~~ ** ...temperature difference = 0.10230 C
>>>> ** ~~~ ** ...calculated volume flow rate = 8253.19807 m3/s
>>>> ** ~~~ ** ...calculated mass flow rate = 9723.31707 kg/s
>>>>
>>>> Maybe the problem is in the design supply air temperatures, which I set to 18°C but I don't understand exaclty what's wrong...
>>>> !- =========== ALL OBJECTS IN CLASS: SIZING:ZONE ===========
>>>>
>>>> Sizing:Zone,
>>>> P0:P0%A1Zn5i, !- Zone or ZoneList Name
>>>> SupplyAirTemperature, !- Zone Cooling Design Supply Air Temperature Input Method
>>>> 14.00, !- Zone Cooling Design Supply Air Temperature {C}
>>>> 5.00, !- Zone Cooling Design Supply Air Temperature Difference {deltaC}
>>>> SupplyAirTemperature, !- Zone Heating Design Supply Air Temperature Input Method
>>>> 18, !- Zone Heating Design Supply Air Temperature {C}
>>>> 15.00, !- Zone Heating Design Supply Air Temperature Difference {deltaC}
>>>> 0.0090, !- Zone Cooling Design Supply Air Humidity Ratio {kgWater/kgDryAir}
>>>> 0.0040, !- Zone Heating Design Supply Air Humidity Ratio {kgWater/kgDryAir}
>>>> P0:P0%A1Zn5i Design Specification Outdoor Air Object, !- Design Specification Outdoor Air Object Name
>>>> 1.25, !- Zone Heating Sizing Factor
>>>> 1.15, !- Zone Cooling Sizing Factor
>>>> DesignDay, !- Cooling Design Air Flow Method
>>>> 0.000000, !- Cooling Design Air Flow Rate {m3/s}
>>>> 0.000760, !- Cooling Minimum Air Flow per Zone Floor Area {m3/s-m2}
>>>> 0.000000, !- Cooling Minimum Air Flow {m3/s}
>>>> 0.00, !- Cooling Minimum Air Flow Fraction
>>>> DesignDay, !- Heating Design Air Flow Method
>>>> 0.000000, !- Heating Design Air Flow Rate {m3/s}
>>>> 0.002030, !- Heating Maximum Air Flow per Zone Floor Area {m3/s-m2}
>>>> 0.141580, !- Heating Maximum Air Flow {m3/s}
>>>> 0.30, !- Heating Maximum Air Flow Fraction
>>>> P0:P0%A1Zn5i Design Specification Zone Air Distribution Object; !- Design Specification Zone Air Distribution Object Name
>>>>
>>>> Thank you all,
Marco
>>>>
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Now you can search Photos & Files in your Group !
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>>>> <MRD xlam 30-04 recup dati dimensionamento modif.svg>
>>>> <MRD xlam 30-04 recup dati dimensionamento modif.rar>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Jean, is this what you mean?
>> Do I have to correct anything?
>> At the moment I'm running a simulation with these parameters.
>>
>> Thanks for your time.
>> Marco
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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