[Equest-users] Internal Wall Problems with Wizard

[Nick Caton]

I agree completely Robby - I do not mean to discount defining all vertices possible as a practice.  I oftentimes do the same whenever zoning is not perfectly orthogonal =).

The point I mean to drive home is the reasons for doing so are to eliminate user-error-based issues, and not due to some mysterious or unknowable flaw of the program/interface.

For what it's worth and to join the chorus, locking to vertices wherever possible is always a good idea.  Defining additional vertices is never a bad idea (in moderation).  When defining geometries, rather than toe the line of "close enough" I have found it easiest to follow the slightly slower, more deliberate path of "exactly right."

To Omer's recent query:  floor-to-floor thermal ties are generated automatically by the wizards if you define multi-story shells, but not otherwise.  IIRC, NEXT-TO thermal ties between shells always require some degree of detailed mode editing, though it is not uncommon to conclude such transfers can be safely omitted from a model (further discussion in the archives).  In any case, this is one of many reasons to prioritize minimizing the quantity of shells, within reason.

Best of luck!

~Nick

[cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]

NICK CATON, P.E.
SENIOR ENGINEER

Smith & Boucher Engineers
25501 west valley parkway, suite 200
olathe, ks 66061
direct 913.344.0036
fax 913.345.0617
www.smithboucher.com

From: Robby Oylear [mailto:robbyoylear at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 3:10 PM
To: Nick Caton
Cc: omoltay at mimtarch.com; eQUEST Users List
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Internal Wall Problems with Wizard

Nick,

It's the "might" that makes it worthwhile to define your vertices exactly in the same location if you want an interior partition created between the two.  eQUEST does have some capability for approximating your intent of two vertices being adjacent, however I have not been able to determine where the tipping point is between "close enough" and "ADIABATIC".

As mentioned above, the same can go for exterior walls where sometimes eQUEST does pick up on the fact that your single vertex on an exterior floor line should result in an exterior wall, however I've witnessed plenty of cases where an interior wall gets created on an exterior exposure.

-Robby
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com<mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com>> wrote:
Sorry my reply is coming late to the party...

Robby's illustration is helpful and the point is well taken as a 'best practice' to avoid user-errors during geometry defnition, but I think I can dispel the "next-to" concerns here and show this is simpler than it may seem...

I recreated your illustration with a quick dummy model and confirmed the quantity of vertices (4 vs. 6) for "zone 1" has zero effect on the quantity of internal partitions created/assigned.  In any case I try to define it, the model is generated with all appropriate partitions and next-to inputs (I cannot recreate Omer's issue as described with spaces not being tied together or adiabatic partitions being created).


The only thing I can think of for Omer's situation is that (1) it's worth noting the model should be making only one partition for any two adjacent spaces (it will be a child component of one or the other), and (2) partitions might go missing/adiabatic if the spaces' vertices aren't being defined accurately enough and there's actually a small gap between the spaces.  To that end maybe Robby's suggestion to define each vertex possible is a good housekeeping approach to avoid such issues of definition.  The only remaining ways you will end up with adiabatic internal partitions is if you actually define them as such in the footprint map where you define zoning patterns and/or in the subsequent wizard shell screens.


NICK CATON, P.E.
SENIOR ENGINEER

Smith & Boucher Engineers
25501 west valley parkway, suite 200
olathe, ks 66061
direct 913.344.0036<tel:913.344.0036>
fax 913.345.0617<tel:913.345.0617>
www.smithboucher.com<http://www.smithboucher.com>

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Robby Oylear
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 10:54 AM

To: omoltay at mimtarch.com<mailto:omoltay at mimtarch.com>
Cc: eQUEST Users List
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Internal Wall Problems with Wizard

I should probably clarify that the vertices shown in the sketch belong to Zone 1.  It is not enough to just define those vertices in Zones 2-4.

-Robby
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Robby Oylear <robbyoylear at gmail.com<mailto:robbyoylear at gmail.com>> wrote:
Omer,

The simplest way to ensure that eQUEST defines the NEXT-TO property correctly is to make sure that each interior wall only interfaces with one other interior wall.

In the situation you describe where you have an interior wall that is adjacent to more than one zone, I would typically split that interior wall into two or three walls by adding vertices at each of the intersections between the zones and the interior wall that spans them.

Here's a sketch of what I'm describing:

Hope that helps.

Robby Oylear, PE, LEED AP
Mechanical Engineer
Senior Energy Analyst

D 206-788-4571<tel:206-788-4571>
www.rushingco.com<http://www.rushingco.com/>

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Ömer Moltay <omoltay at mimtarch.com<mailto:omoltay at mimtarch.com>> wrote:
Dear All,

I have realized that while creating the model after Wizard entries, eQuest will fail to determine the NEXT-TO property for interior walls that are adjacent to more than one zone and all those interior walls will be defined as ADIABATIC.

Also, I see that interior walls are missing from zones where another zone has an ADIABATIC wall in the same place.

I see no way of having a model with all interior walls correctly defined without fixing all these problems after the Wizard. Does everybody have the same experience or am I missing something?

Ömer Moltay, LEED AP BD+C, ASHRAE BEMP, CPMP, BREEAM Assessor
Mimta EcoYapi
Hekimsuyu Cad. 559. Sk. No:39
34255 Kucukkoy Istanbul Turkey
Tel: 90-212-617-2296
Fax: 90-212-617-2297
www.ekoyapi.net<http://www.ekoyapi.net>
www.mimtasolar.com<http://www.mimtasolar.com>
www.mimtarch.com<http://www.mimtarch.com>


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