RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

Now you are measuring the return pipe, and turn off the pump at 59°C.

I asked you to enter all the temperature values on the chart I send you on this group.
I do not really believe what you are saying, and therefore I asked you to enter all the numbers and branches on the schematic diagram and see whether they make sense.

Fire on and water at 60 and 78°C does not mean that something is controlling at those temperature values.

80°C fire off is the only temperature control I believe on your system.

Pump goes on bypass mode at 59°C is possible. Anything else I do not know what to believe. No other control is really needed on the water plant. The plant sizing is at 80°C delta 15°C. I think. Design maximum temperature for boiler is at 80°C.

Why do you want to add more control on the plant and not on the zones.

Dr. Li

To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:18:27 +0000
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

From: YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support <energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

but i talk about HW pump , in the real system there is thermostat surface on the main return pipe hot water loop that it controls hot water pump (HW pump ), and it means when water temperature return pipe to hw is geater than 59 C , then HW pump will be off ,

If you were telling the same real story, you said that there was a pump by pass, and then later you said that there was no pump by-pass.

yes there is bypass , but this bypass is only on in the summer , because in the summer we dont need hw pump , so when i see the bypass pipe only use in the summer so i dont use bypass for winter ,

If you want to save power, you can use this theremostat to turn off the pump. It will not turn off the boiler fire. Normally, this is done by the care taker when running the boiler and starting the boiler every morning.

how i can show this in enrgyplus? i mean , i dont know what thermostat i must put as input id idf for of and on the hw pump according return pipe temperature ,

If you do not have a pump by pass, the pump off mean no heating nor hot water.

when pump will be off , boiler mybye on because boiler will be on and off according its water temperature ,

for example:

thermostat of pump is 59 (when return water pipe temperature is greater than 59 it will be off ) and thermostat of boiler is 80 ( when hot water of boiler is greater than 80 boiler wil be off)

in one case : temperature inlet water pump is 60 , and water of boiler is 78 =====> so pump will be off and boiler will be on ( pump will be off and boiler will be on )

Dr. Li

To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxFrom: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxxDate: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:50:28 +0000Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

From: YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support <energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 10:01 PM
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

Turned on and off by your care taker in the real system. In Eplus, you enter it as an available schedule. Or just do nothing. When the water flow is zero, it will turn itself off. I have mentioned this many time. Because of your DHW usage, the pump in the simulation may not turn off, except at 3 am. Dr. Li

Dr.Li yes you are right DHW pump will be turn off because of the usage of domostic hot water is 0 for this time.

To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxx Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:05:54 +0000 Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

From: YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support <energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:51 PM
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

An intermitent pump in EPlus is one which can be switched on and off. The pump itself does not sense the flow rate, the pressure or the temperature. It is switched on/off by another controller. could you please describe more little about what controller?

It may turn itself off, if the pressure is too high for safety reasons. This is why you have a by-pass branch in the loop. The thermostat turns off the burner.

the zone air thermostat turn off the burner? It should not turns off the pump at the same time, unless the pump has a by-pass. I do not know what switches it off in your real system.

Dr.Li : in the building that i simulated : the thermostat of boiler ( aquastat ) switch on/off the burner , and the thermostat surface on the main return pipe hot water loop that it controls hot water pump (HW pump ) and another thermostat on the domostic hot water pipe of coil tank for domostic hot water that controls when water of in the coil needs heat

Dr. Li

To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxx Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 18:11:21 +0000 Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

Dr.Li can you say what does intermitent pump in energyplus?

the pump will run at its capacity if a load is sensed and will shut off if there is no load on loop ,

can you explain it please ?

From: YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support <energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:36 PM
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

You have some input to the IDF for the DHW usage. I have no idea whether it is running or not in the simulation. Please do not show me a spread sheet for some measured results, and theb link my comments for the spread sheet to the simulation that I do not know. Dr. Li

To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxx Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 17:02:33 +0000 Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

Dear Dr.Li ,

i dont undrestandt you said i was not using the DHW,

i use :

Schedule:Compact,
    Sinks Flow Schedule,     !- Name
    Any Number,              !- Schedule Type Limits Name
    THROUGH: 12/31,          !- Field 1
    FOR: AllDays,            !- Field 2
    UNTIL: 1:00, 0.003,      !- Field 4
    UNTIL: 2:00, 0.001,      !- Field 6
    UNTIL: 3:00, 0,          !- Field 8
    UNTIL: 4:00, 0,          !- Field 10
    UNTIL: 5:00, 0.001,      !- Field 12
    UNTIL: 6:00, 0.028,      !- Field 14
    UNTIL: 7:00, 0.105,      !- Field 16
    UNTIL: 8:00, 0.1,        !- Field 18
    UNTIL: 9:00, 0.081,      !- Field 20
    UNTIL: 10:00, 0.059,     !- Field 22
    UNTIL: 11:00, 0.051,     !- Field 24
    UNTIL: 12:00, 0.037,     !- Field 26
    UNTIL: 13:00, 0.031,     !- Field 28
    UNTIL: 14:00, 0.026,     !- Field 30
    UNTIL: 15:00, 0.023,     !- Field 32
    UNTIL: 16:00, 0.033,     !- Field 34
    UNTIL: 17:00, 0.041,     !- Field 36
    UNTIL: 18:00, 0.063,     !- Field 38
    UNTIL: 19:00, 0.075,     !- Field 40
    UNTIL: 20:00, 0.066,     !- Field 42
    UNTIL: 21:00, 0.059,     !- Field 44
    UNTIL: 22:00, 0.046,     !- Field 46
    UNTIL: 23:00, 0.046,     !- Field 48
    UNTIL: 24:00, 0.025;     !- Field 50

=========== ALL OBJECTS IN CLASS: WATERUSE:EQUIPMENT ===========

WaterUse:Equipment,
    Sinks,                   !- Name
    Sinks,                   !- End-Use Subcategory
    0.000158,                !- Peak Flow Rate {m3/s}
    Sinks Flow Schedule,     !- Flow Rate Fraction Schedule Name
    Sinks and Showers Temp Schedule; !- Target Temperature Schedule Name

!- =========== ALL OBJECTS IN CLASS: WATERUSE:CONNECTIONS ===========

WaterUse:Connections, Domestic Hot Water, !- Name Domestic Hot Water Inlet Node, !- Inlet Node Name Domestic Hot Water Outlet Node, !- Outlet Node Name , !- Supply Water Storage Tank Name , !- Reclamation Water Storage Tank Name , !- Hot Water Supply Temperature Schedule Name , !- Cold Water Supply Temperature Schedule Name NONE, !- Drain Water Heat Exchanger Type , !- Drain Water Heat Exchanger Destination , !- Drain Water Heat Exchanger U-Factor Times Area {W/K} Sinks; !- Water Use Equipment 1 Name

Schedule:Compact,
    Sinks and Showers Temp Schedule, !- Name
    Any Number,              !- Schedule Type Limits Name
    THROUGH: 12/31,          !- Field 1
    FOR: AllDays,            !- Field 2
    UNTIL: 24:00, 40.56;     !- Field 4

with this input i think i used DHW , and also i put :

PlantEquipmentOperation:HeatingLoad,
    DHW Control Scheme,      !- Name
    0,                       !- Load Range 1 Lower Limit {W}
    90000,                !- Load Range 1 Upper Limit {W}
    DHW Plant Equipment;     !- Range 1 Equipment List Name

PlantEquipmentOperation:HeatingLoad,
    Central Boiler Only,     !- Name
    0,                       !- Load Range 1 Lower Limit {W}
    90000,                 !- Load Range 1 Upper Limit {W}
    heating plant;           !- Range 1 Equipment List Name

Dr.Li can you say what does intermitent pump in energyplus?

the pump will run at its capacity if a load is sensed and will shut off if there is no load on loop ,

can you explain it please ?

From: YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support <energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 7:09 PM
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

That was because you were not using the DHW, and you have 1 mega watt of furnace power. The boiler furnace does not control the HW pump. Dr. Li

To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxx Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 13:47:43 +0000 Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

it is my experiment data , and i have HW pump off and boiler on

but in my result energyplus i dont have this state , HW pump never off

From: YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support <energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 4:38 PM
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

All four states are on the spread sheet. Sorry. I means row 11 an row 12 of the spread sheet.. The year was 2010. Was it that long ago? Dr. Li

Boiler HW pump (Starting on row 9)

1	1
1	1
1	0
1	0
0	0 You missed out this state.
0	1
0	1
1	1
0	1
0	1
1	1
0	1
1	1
0	0
0	0
1	0
1	0

To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxx Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 00:41:02 +0000 Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

excuse me i dont undrestand : on line 11 and 12 " what you mean ?

now in iran is 4:10 AM

From: YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support <energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 4:06 AM
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

On line 11 and 12. and more later on. Dr. Li

To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxx Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 00:32:04 +0000 Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

Dr.Li sorry for my mistake i dont see the result of HW pump off and boiler on ,

i dont undrestand why , ?

From: YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support <energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:55 AM
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

This is why you must not change names and create different names of the objects. "HW pump" is not the same as "pump" to me. I do not associate 3 and 4 with the spread sheet as they are only for two other variables. HW pump on and boiler off is a valid state, because the pump is not controlled by the boiler. The pump is on the supply side water loop, the boiler fire is on the heating tank source side, and is not in the water loop. Your statement on EPlus is not correct. Dr. Li

To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxx Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 23:57:37 +0000 Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

From: YuanLu Li <yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: EnergyPlus_Support <energyplus_support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:14 AM
Subject: RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

thanks for looking that

The data looked normal. You should have taken the temperature values at the same time. yes i take it but in the excel file that i send you there is nt,
You did not record the DHW pump on the spread sheet.

i recorded DHW pump , but in this file that i send you it is only HW pump HW pump off, boiler off not listed below,

i wrote wrong in number 3, sorry , it must be HW pump off ,boiler off there is on the spread sheet.

in my energyplus result i dont see number 4 case (HW pump on and boiler off ) i dont undrestand why?

) Hw pump off but boiler on (DHW is being heated)

2)Hw pump on and boiler on (Normal )

3)HW pump 0ff but boiler on (HW below set point, DHW not in use)

4)HW pump on and boiler off (Tank is hot enough for a while) i dont this case result ( HW pump on and boiler off ) in my energyplus result ,

This is an indication that you did not plan the experiment well, and do not record the actual condition on site. Instead of 0 and 1's on the spread sheet, you should combined the states and then list the meaning of each state. Two pumps and a boiler fire should give you 8 states.
yes you are right i have 8 states, but in the excel file that i sent you , there is only the result of HW pump and boiler
Some states may not be possible, and then your should try to explain them. Dr. Li

To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: t.t111ir@xxxxxxxxx Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:58:35 +0000 Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] availabilityManager:High temperaturTurnoff

please see the file that i attached :this is the real experiment data that i measured :

it shows some times all of below

1) Hw pump off but boiler on (DHW is being heated)

2)Hw pump on and boiler on (Normal )

3)pump 0ff but boiler on (HW below set point, DHW not in use)

4)pump on and boiler off (Tank is hot enough for a while)

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