Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Quick path to learn HVAC detailed modeling approach, is there an

Jim,

About re-inventing the wheel: EnergyPlus has already had (for quite sometime) an abstraction layer that hides all node definition from the user. What I mean is the HVACTemplate. Before any of the GUI's came out, what I imagine is that any GUI will simply ride on top of this elegant infrastructure.

But, alas, that is not the case. All of EnergyPlus's HVAC GUI uses their own template system. For me this is re-inventing the wheel. Granted, that the EPlus developer cannot provide HVAC template for all HVAC system out there, at least not fast enough. But that does not mean everybody should define their own "standard" of writing nodes, so much so that every GUI cannot import a simple HVAC system from an IDF.

If only all the GUI follows the "standard" node expansion as defined by the HVAC template ... world can be much simpler.

Ery

On 12/09/2013 09:32 AM, Jim Dirkes wrote:

Gentlemen,

I don't think "simple" or "light weight" and "EnergyPlus" really fit together in the same sentence. I am amazed at how well the folks at DesignBuilder or OpenStudio or Simergy (or AECOSim or n++ or gEnergy) can get anything to work! While participating in the development of Simergy as an "industry consultant", I was made keenly aware of how complex and wide-ranging the connections for nodes (only) can be for a programmer. There are dozens (hundreds?) of ways to get them wrong and only one or two correct ways. That is not to consider the many optional ways that you may want to actually build a particular model.

I generally try not to “re-invent the wheel”, so if there’s something that a reliable developer has already created, I try to use it and offer helpful comments for their improvement (as well as exercising patience when they can’t move as fast as I’d like). At the moment, there appears to be many GUI options � quite the change from even 2-3 years ago!! As far as I can tell, none of them implement absolutely everything that is available within E+, but they’re progressing steadily. That means I can use a hybrid (commercial GUI + custom modifications) approach and spend less time working on software. One of these days (probably) the GUIs will be all that we need�.

In short, I think that helping / enabling the efforts of a developer who is already working on the problem is a better approach.

p.s., full disclosure requires that I say I’m still using my own “software” (a spreadsheet input and analysis aid) because it includes features that I don’t yet have from other tools.

James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP

www.buildingperformanceteam.com

Energy Analysis, Commissioning & Training Services

1631 Acacia Drive, Grand Rapids, MI 49504 USA

616 450 8653

-----Original Message-----
From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Glazer
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 11:01 AM
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Re: Quick path to learn HVAC detailed modeling approach, is there an

Jeremiah,

Lightweight to the developer yet still helpful to the user.

Finding the right user interface that is both is a challenge. The ideas of "only fit if they should", "include the other components" and "are directional" seem like a good start for understanding the user's needs. Can you (or anyone

else) think of any other?

Jason

On 12/7/2013 9:35 PM, Jeremiah Crossett wrote:

>

>

> Jason,

> As I work through node connections in IDF editor I thought back to

> your offer here- Yes it would be very useful, it might be drag and

> drop with simple icons and nodes that are directional so that they can

> only fit if they should and automatically include the other

> components. One thing is for sure-- the current system is the most

> difficult part of E+, so a lightweight tool to simply it would be

> really great.

> /

> /

> **

> **

> **

> Jeremiah D. Crossett*| Senior Analyst | Phase Change Energy

> Solutions*

> *

> *

> 120 E. Pritchard St. | Asheboro, NC 27203

>   | Mobile 503-688-8951*

> **www.phasechange.com <http://www.phasechange.com/> **

> *

> **

> **

> **

> **

>

>

>

> On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Jason Glazer <jglazer@xxxxxxxx

> <mailto:jglazer@xxxxxxxx>> wrote:

>

>     As a software developer who has been on the EnergyPlus

>     development team for many years, I have been thinking about

>     what kind of software could be developed to make the process

>     of assembling and editing the HVAC systems easier. I know

>     for some that a complete icon based graphical system may be

>     the perfect answer. Tools like Simergy and DesignBuilder and

>     OpenStudio are already heading in that direction and are

>     continuing to get better and better. But I keep coming back

>     to the idea of a very light weight program that could be

>     useful. "Very light weight" meaning a small hobby project

>     for me or a small group. Probably with a grid or

>     hierarchical list etc., nothing too fancy.

>

>     It seems like the mechanics of changing node names and

>     adding names of objects to various lists are very easy to

>     automate. The problem is how to tackle the problem and be

>     useful and at the same relative simple. If anyone has and

>     ideas for a light weight but useful program for helping with

>     EnergyPlus HVAC, please let me know? Maybe include a mockup

>     of the interface.

>

>     Thanks

>

>     Jason

>

>     On 11/12/2013 10:57 AM, Humphrey, Neal wrote:

>      >

>      >

>      > Hisham and others,

>      >

>      > As others have mentioned, it’s key to realize that

>      > EnergyPlus was designed with the calculation process in

>      > mind, not the user input. Definitely start with a

>     template

>      > and then start modifying as Jeremiah suggests. Even this,

>      > however, is not very straightforward to learn how to do.

>      >

>      > For me, the most useful thing I did for learning how to

>      > modify existing HVAC systems was I took a big flip-chart

>     > piece of paper and created a very detailed map of all the

>      > HVAC components and their relevant inputs. The SVG

>     file is a

>      > very simple representation of the system that doesn’t

>     tell

>      > you enough about the multiple objects that need to be

>      > modified to edit it.

>      >

>      > My process was to start somewhere in the loop (at the

>      > cooling coil for instance), and map out the objects,

>     trace

>      > the node name to the next object, then do a text

>     search of

>      > the file to find every reference to that node name and to

>      > that object name. Finally, you follow the referenced

>     objects

>      > (i.e. the cooling coil references the curves that

>     inform it

>      > and the schedule the tells its availability). If you put

>      > this all on a map, you’ll see that if you want to add a

>      > supplemental heating coil, for instance, you’ll need

>     to edit

>      > the node names of the objects before and after where you

>      > insert it, as well as editing some of the ‘container’

>      > objects like the Branch. The search for the node

>     names would

>      > reveal you also need to edit your relevant setpoint

>     managers

>      > to reflect these new node names (and add a new one to

>      > control the coil). It also reveals a few counter

>     intuitive

>      > things like that most objects are “connected” by

>     doing two

>      > things � using identical node names for inlet/outlet, as

>     > well as putting them on the container ‘branch’ object

>     - but

>      > a few nodes aren’t. The Supply branch outlet node is

>      > connected virtually to the zone equipment inlet node

>     using

>      > the AirLoopHVAC object.

>      >

>     > Just going through the process of mapping one or two

>     systems

>      > this way makes you much more comfortable

>     understanding the

>      > logic behind the HVAC inputs, and you won’t need to

>     do the

>      > full map anymore for future systems.

>      >

>      > Neal

>      >

>      > *NEAL HUMPHREY*| Senior Associate | 919.449.6879

>     <tel:919.449.6879> |

>      > nhumphrey@xxxxxxxx <mailto:nhumphrey@xxxxxxxx>

>     <mailto:nhumphrey@xxxxxxxx <mailto:nhumphrey@xxxxxxxx>>

>      >

>      > *ICF INTERNATIONAL*| 9300 Lee Highway, Fairfax, VA

>     22031 |

>      > icfi.com <http://icfi.com> <http://www.icfi.com/>

>      >

>      >

>      >

>      >

>

>     --

>     Jason Glazer, P.E., GARD Analytics, 90.1 ECB chair

>     Admin for onebuilding.org <http://onebuilding.org>

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