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RE: [EnergyPlus_Support] Annual Peak cooling variable ?
You can create custom output variables using EMS and they?ll show up in the CSV. The first example in the EMS application guide discusses how to do it. For large parametric studies, processing such things in EnergyPlus Runtime Language can have advantages over scripted post processing because you don?t need to burden the file system with as much bulky output data.
From: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeremiah Crossett
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 11:28 AM
To: EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Annual Peak cooling variable ?
Here is a question-- I see no practical use for the sensible cooling rate in its current annual average approach- does anyone have any use for this annual average cooling rate> if not then the variable should be depreciated and replaced with a variable that shows the annual peak so that this variable can be used for load minimization.
If you where to have a $ value tied to your hvac and output to csv than you could have the same but more direct effect as you could glean from an annual peak- However the annual peak is now in the eso file so it should be the easiest to add to the idd/rdd a variable titled "sensible cooling rate peak" Appending by hand would not work for large studies due to the imperfect nature of thousands of copy pastes.. (jE+ could append automatically with rvi if there was a variable that matched).. To write a script is one solution. But given the strait forward nature of the problem, the usefulness and simplicity of the solution it just makes most since to include this in some future version of e+.
Thanks Li,
I wonder sometimes by your comments if you are serious or if you do this for fun- Also from what I have seen of your posts you just use the 5 zone model with ddy runs only, not something I see as being much like a real building. My single zone studies are designed to be as detailed as the software is capable of for that single zone.
By the way the reference buildings in the example folder is not climate specific such as the user requested.
Jeremiah D. Crossett | Senior Analyst | Phase Change Energy Solutions
120 E. Pritchard St. | Asheboro, NC 27203 | Mobile <tel:503-688-8951>503-688-8951
<http://www.phasechange.com>www.phasechange.com
<http://i.imgur.com/Sldxf.jpg>
On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 7:20 AM, YuanLu Li <<mailto:yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Sorry, Jeremiah
My comments are straight forward. I do not 'insinuating about "one window of partial construction" '. That is what I found in your IDF. To me it does not look like a part of an energy saving building.
As the maximum peak values are in the ESO , you can open the file one by one and append the values to the .csv. If you are asking the EPlus parametric run to create your exmple.csv, that is another request. It has nothing to do with the normal EPlus simulation run, nor the .rvi post processor.
Every post you make in the forum introduce something different. That is your problem. HVAC component cost, initial cost, etc. has nothing to do with PCM nor maximum peak values.
You are the PCM EPlus optimization expert, so do your own research and do not ask me any more. I am not looking for a fee,in case some one is still watching.
What else do you want me to add to your comments? By the way the reference buildings are in the ExampleFiles folder.
Dr. Li
To: <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: <mailto:jcrossett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>jcrossett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:57:11 -0700
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Annual Peak cooling variable ?
Dr. Li
Thanks- I actually do have the full model of this projects well, but what I do is study individual zones in great detail and am not sure what your insinuating about "one window of partial construction" The CSV file shows 960 iterations of the model I sent and the annual output variables in a single sheet automatically created with the original problem of the sensible cooling rate being the average number rather then max. I would love to hear about your "several different ways to use PCM's" other than the between insulation and interior surfaces of external adjacency's if you could share? (I have not found better results with any of the other options I have experimented with...:)
Best
Jeremiah D. Crossett | Senior Analyst | Phase Change Energy Solutions
120 E. Pritchard St. | Asheboro, NC 27203 | Mobile <tel:503-688-8951>503-688-8951
<http://www.phasechange.com>www.phasechange.com
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 1:31 PM, YuanLu Li <<mailto:yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Sorry, Jeremiah
I do not want to discuss this topic any more.
I have no idea how you do the modelling, and have no interest in using the PCM material in a wall or roof as in your IDF..
Yes, I have several different ways of using the PCM storage material, and the way to use it correctly in a wall.
Have your fun with parametric runs, on one wall and one window of a paartial buiding geometry..
Bt the way, the sample csv file you send me does not contain any useful information. I am not going to tell you why, because there is not inough information on the chart for me to comment on what the values represent. So long they mean something to you, it will be fine.
Dr. Li
To: <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: <mailto:jcrossett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>jcrossett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:10:53 -0700
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Annual Peak cooling variable ?
> Dr. Li,
> Either you have not looked at this model, or need to learn how the surface adjacency of Energy Plus works- as the floor is "surface" so the boundary conditions are "surface" with the identified surface being the name of the same surface. The South, North and East walls are internal- as is the floor. The external adjacent to exterior are roof/ceiling and west wall. The model shows a 16% cooling load reduction, and 35% cooling energy consumption I think that is rather good. The dollar per kW numbers for cooling system size are just to fill blanks, and change for each building. I have just one more question for you- The most typical PCM applications are inside of insulation, as shown in the model I sent-- how do you imagine might be a better application of PCM such as attached image than between insulation and drywall as configured in this model?
Jeremiah D. Crossett | Senior Analyst | Phase Change Energy Solutions
120 E. Pritchard St. | Asheboro, NC 27203 | Mobile 503-688-8951
<http://www.phasechange.com>www.phasechange.com
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 5:26 AM, YuanLu Li <<mailto:yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx>yli006@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi, Jeremiah
I do not think that I need to continue with this topic with you.
"First I must mention that the adjacency of the surfaces with PCM are external-"
>
There is no wall or ceiling in your building that is internal. Floor is also to ground. The PCM layer is insulated from the exterior, as is in the inner layer next to the dry wall. Is this the best way to add the PCM?
I know what is EPlus, and how .rvi etc are to be used. I know what is in the SQL script. All the data in the ESO are in there.
I do not run simulation like you do and am not interested in the common .csv, unless it has some meaningful results.
>
> I have a generic value of $2000 per Ton for chiller provided to me by a user and research, for projects the number changes - what is useful is to be able to use a number, as I have no problem getting the bid price for actual systems or using generic figures for generic models.
I already mentioned that. Call a tender to get all you want. Why bother to add it to the simulation which is mainly for the building and not for the equipment. Eplus is not designed for material research, either. But it is a good tool to provide a controlled environment to test the material when used as a building material. May be you do not know how to this. I am not willing to discuss with you on this topic.
The generric cost number does not mean anything. It varies from place to place and does not hold for the different configuration of the same equipment type. . The number you quoted in you example for the DX coil is well to high. $5,700 for a 1000w coil. $5.7 for 1kW is too low.
If yu think they should be included, go ahead. I do not care about the cost output in the EPlus, as they do not apply to my county.
Go ahead and do what you want and ask what you want. You are the bioPCM expert, and I do not think I would use the biostix your way.
In fact, I am not really interested in HVAC system for general use. Only special buildings with special application requirement would need customed HVAC. Comfort is not one of the requirements.
Dr. Li
To: <mailto:EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>EnergyPlus_Support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: <mailto:jcrossett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>jcrossett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 19:16:40 -0700
Subject: Re: [EnergyPlus_Support] Annual Peak cooling variable ?
Dr. Li,
This is fun- you make me really work to make my point-thanks--- I guess I should have mentioned that I am useing jE+ as it provides the ability to populate values from E+ variables- (more on this below)
* My bullet point comment on your other comments-
Ice has the heat storage and release effect at 0°C.
* This exzample model uses BioPCM with a melting temp or Q value of 27c for the roof and 25c for the external wall.
Because the values are already in the ..zSz.csv file, which is smaller and easier to extract. So, why making the live more difficult. If you have the parametric file name set up in a list, a loop can open the zSz.csv, go to the last line - 2 and pick out the values, and append them to a new file in the format of your choice. The peak values are automatically generated in the sizing file and no .RVI file is needed. The normal .csv file would only accept a single value data for each column. Therefore, the peak value cannot be sent there. You can ask the developer to change the averaged value to peak, then will also show automaatically in a annual listing. May be be both as two single field data.
.